Pope Francis Calls Conservative Catholics “Backward.” Nice guy, huh?

[chevyontheriver]

View attachment 336021

She was burned as a heretic.

 

[mourningdove~]

She was burned as a heretic.

... and many years later, canonized as a saint.

 

[WarriorAngel]

One would think. But then he says he does not fear schism. I fear schism. He doesn't. He should. And he should do his best to avoid it.

He's pushing people towards the doors. Some are already going out. He is intentionally marginalizing people. By removing the TLM he will only have people in the Church who accept the NO. And a large contingent of people he has pushed out the door. Much larger than the old SSPX. So he will have taken the old SSPX schism and multiplied it by at least ten. Maybe fifty by the time it's all over.

For all of his talk of accompaniment he is relentless in insulting and criticizing and alienating people who you used to call plain old faithful Catholics. Now we are backwards. What will tomorrow bring? What kind of new anti-accompaniment will be hatched?

I hate to think this way. But his words are corrosive. I have to maintain my communion with him nonetheless. Because I would be bad if I didn't.

Well if he was wrong, or doing wrong, the Lord would intervene.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well if he was wrong, or doing wrong, the Lord would intervene.

Perhaps soon. Perhaps we are being shown the possible depths of perfidity first. Do not presume that everything a pope does is the desire of the heart of God. Some of it is only the permissive will, just as genocide has been permitted. A pope cannot teach error in faith and morals, but only when speaking ex cathedra. Speaking on a plane is not covered. Papal appointments are not covered either. Nor are interviews with atheist journalists or other communications. Nothing yet by pope Francis has risen to infallibility except maybe the Dubia, which I suspect he has been kept from answering as he would like to answer. My hunch is that the Lord may have been very busy restraining already.

 

[mourningdove~]

Perhaps soon. Perhaps we are being shown the possible depths of perfidity first. Do not presume that everything a pope does is the desire of the heart of God. Some of it is only the permissive will, just as genocide has been permitted. A pope cannot teach error in faith and morals, but only when speaking ex cathedra. Speaking on a plane is not covered. Papal appointments are not covered either. Nor are interviews with atheist journalists or other communications. Nothing yet by pope Francis has risen to infallibility except maybe the Dubia, which I suspect he has been kept from answering as he would like to answer. My hunch is that the Lord may have been very busy restraining already.

I so appreciate you addressing this ^.

So, to clarify, are you saying that the pope IS NOT JESUS walking on the earth?
I do get the sense that some see him that way ...

The Spirit of Christ lives in all of us as baptized Christians, and certainly the pope, but I do not take that to mean that the pope ...
or any of us ... IS actually Jesus. (Does the Church teach that the pope IS Jesus???)

And about the photo of St. Joan ...
I had a blast (=fun) posting it. It seemed appropriate for all the intense debate in this thread.
But I didn't mean to get 'heavy' with it. I went looking for a soldier and found her. It was really just that simple.
I was joking abit, but you ... and probably most others here ... wouldn't know it because we don't know each that well.
So, if I offended anyone with the St. Joan image, I'm sorry.
I was just having some fun.

Afterwards, the Spirit did remind me that what is happening these days in the Church is very serious ...
and probably very very serious to those of you that have been faithful to the Church for a long time.
And so I'm sorry if I was being insensitive in 'jesting' abit.

I AM, however, anxiously awaiting the outcome of the October Synod, like many others.
I am very anxious to hear what we will be told "the Holy Spirit' has said.
If what we are told does not measure up to the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the Catholic Church, I won't accept it as truth.
And I will reject it because I will know we are hearing from false prophets, or at the least, persons with very poor spiritual discernment.

 

[mourningdove~]

For all of his talk of accompaniment he is relentless in insulting and criticizing and alienating people who you used to call plain old faithful Catholics. Now we are backwards. What will tomorrow bring? What kind of new anti-accompaniment will be hatched?

I hate to think this way. But his words are corrosive.

It confuses me ... some seem to think the pope doesn't know or understand what he is saying.
They kindly make excuses for the things that he says.

Yes, we may speak different languages, but I do not believe the pope is not smart, or that he is just some 'fuddy duddy' old man that does not understand what he is saying.

And I'll tell you why I say that ...

As the Vicar of Christ, a very high position with the Lord, I would expect the pope would be endowed with any and all spiritual gifts needed to communicate well. And I also would expect he would be corrected by the Spirit, when he does not.

I am talking now about the charismatic spiritual gifts ... guess we call them charisms.
We see in the Book of Acts, at Pentecost, that the apostles were given spiritual gifts in order to perform their ministries.

One was the gift of speaking in tongues. And also the gift of interpretation of tongues.
And so, despite any language differences, the apostles were able to go and preach and teach in 'different' tongues ...
foreign languages, other than their own ... so as to be understood by the peoples they were addressing.

They were endowed with other gifts also ... like words of knowledge, words of wisdom, gifts of healing, gift of prophecy, etc. ...
all to enable them to minister effectively for Christ.

If God did all that for the apostles, and does it for Christians still today, would He not also do it for the pope ...
His very representative on earth?

Of course He would!

We must hope and trust that the pope is flowing in the spiritual gifts.
If he is not, that would be a very big problem that would be painful to acknowledge ...

 

[Wolseley]

So, to clarify, are you saying that the pope IS NOT JESUS walking on the earth?

Correct. The pope is  PETER walking on the earth.

 

[mourningdove~]

Correct. The pope is  PETER walking on the earth.

Really? You're not kidding me? You know, somehow 'I never got that email'. lol
(If I did, it must've gone to my spam folder and been deleted!)


(Thanks! You've definitely given me something to think about ... )

 

[mourningdove~]

Correct. The pope is  PETER walking on the earth.

Really? You're not kidding me? You know, somehow 'I never got that email'. lol
(If I did, it must've gone to my spam folder and been deleted!)


(Thanks! You've definitely given me something to think about ... )

@Wolseley You know, I really do thank you for your post.

I don't know where in the world I got the idea that we are suppose to treat the pope as if he IS Jesus ...
and some ... maybe many ... seem to do that ... but it had to have been in my early Catholic childhood education.
(That was back the '60's ... guess catechesis wasn't always so great? Or me not so bright ... lol!)

... but as an adult, and a committed Christian, I've just not been able to do that.

Some things posted in this thread seemed to enforce that "pope/Jesus" idea ... glad to know that is not the case.

("Relieved.")
...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Perhaps soon. Perhaps we are being shown the possible depths of perfidity first. Do not presume that everything a pope does is the desire of the heart of God. Some of it is only the permissive will, just as genocide has been permitted. A pope cannot teach error in faith and morals, but only when speaking ex cathedra. Speaking on a plane is not covered. Papal appointments are not covered either. Nor are interviews with atheist journalists or other communications. Nothing yet by pope Francis has risen to infallibility except maybe the Dubia, which I suspect he has been kept from answering as he would like to answer. My hunch is that the Lord may have been very busy restraining already.

That's my point.
The Lord is always keeping the gates of hell from prevailing.

So I do not worry.
But that Pope Francis does not wish TLM, as St Pio gave us an example from not being allowed to celebrate the Mass and other things that he obeyed even his Bishops...

People rose up in anger over the Church abuses at the time of St Francis who instead bent to kiss the hands that consecrate the Eucharist.

We are always the role models for others and we speak uncharitably, no matter how well received the notions may be, we are probably guilty of something.
I don't think people even realize.

I just feel repulsed by disobedience even if I would love the TLM more in use in every city.

 

[Michie]

??!!

 

[chevyontheriver]

I so appreciate you addressing this ^.

So, to clarify, are you saying that the pope IS NOT JESUS walking on the earth?
I do get the sense that some see him that way ...

The pope, and every priest for that matter, can be called 'alter Christi' which is 'another Christ'. Any priest involved in any sacrament functions 'in persona Christi' which is 'in the person of Christ'. So there is that sense.

The Spirit of Christ lives in all of us as baptized Christians, and certainly the pope, but I do not take that to mean that the pope ...
or any of us ... IS actually Jesus. (Does the Church teach that the pope IS Jesus???)

Only in the above sense, which recognizes that the sacraments work by the power of Christ. As to when the pope speaks, it is the pope speaking, held in check by the limiting power of infallibility on the one hand and by the creative power of the Holy Spirit if the pope is actually attuned to the graces offered to him. But it is too much of a pious embellishment to say that Jesus speaks whenever the pope speaks. Not always the case. Maybe once in a while.

I AM, however, anxiously awaiting the outcome of the October Synod, like many others.
I am very anxious to hear what we will be told "the Holy Spirit' has said.
If what we are told does not measure up to the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the Catholic Church, I won't accept it as truth.
And I will reject it because I will know we are hearing from false prophets, or at the least, persons with very poor spiritual discernment.

These will be tense times. These synods are not infallible events. Since Vatican II they have been advisory meetings for the pope. who would then make of them an Apostolic Exhortation or something, and then make a change or two based on recommendations. This one, one wonders. There are expectations of drastic changes. Will it unravel the Church? Will the Modernists finally get everything they wanted? Or will they get the door slammed in their faces by a pope who is protected by the Holy Spirit from destroying Catholic teaching? Crazy times.

Don't be anxious. Be faithful. Discern. Pray. Fast when possible. Persevere. Pray that the wreckers be converted. Satan is going big. But he loses in the end.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's my point.
The Lord is always keeping the gates of hell from prevailing.

Yes.

So I do not worry.

We should be concerned. Again, Sunday's first reading.

I just feel repulsed by disobedience even if I would love the TLM more in use in every city.

I think Jesus said it best. Do what they say, but not what they do. Matthew 23:3

We need to obey because of the office these people have. Even when they are wrong. We might find clever ways of obeying, but in the end we are stuck obeying. If they shut down our parishes, as they did during Covid, putting physical health above spiritual health, we make do. If they cancel our priests, as they have done and continue to do, we make do. In making do, we pray for them, fast for them, maybe directly tell them when they are wrong, maybe restrict donations or whatever.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It confuses me ... some seem to think the pope doesn't know or understand what he is saying.
They kindly make excuses for the things that he says.

I was one of those people for about two years.

As the Vicar of Christ, a very high position with the Lord, I would expect the pope would be endowed with any and all spiritual gifts needed to communicate well. And I also would expect he would be corrected by the Spirit, when he does not.

The cardinals are not infallible when picking a pope. And the pope only has the spiritual gifts he has sought out over the years. Maybe no spiritual gifts. No guarantee of any spiritual gifts even if popes often are very gifted. Infallibility is a sort of negative gift that the Church has, which prevents the pope or a general council from teaching error. It doesn't 'correct' as much as prevent.

I am talking now about the charismatic spiritual gifts ... guess we call them charisms.
We see in the Book of Acts, at Pentecost, that the apostles were given spiritual gifts in order to perform their ministries.

One was the gift of speaking in tongues. And also the gift of interpretation of tongues.
And so, despite any language differences, the apostles were able to go and preach and teach in 'different' tongues ...
foreign languages, other than their own ... so as to be understood by the peoples they were addressing.

They were endowed with other gifts also ... like words of knowledge, words of wisdom, gifts of healing, gift of prophecy, etc. ...
all to enable them to minister effectively for Christ.

If God did all that for the apostles, and does it for Christians still today, would He not also do it for the pope ...
His very representative on earth?

Of course He would!

We must hope and trust that the pope is flowing in the spiritual gifts.
If he is not, that would be a very big problem that would be painful to acknowledge ...

We need to pray for the pope that he open himself to the gifts that have been offered to him. We know that spiritual gifts have been made available to him. I think of how open pope John Paul II was to these gifts. They are available. They are free. They are also free to ignore or even repudiate. Popes need a LOT of prayer that they remain in the center of the faith. This one in particular.

 

[mourningdove~]

We need to obey because of the office these people have. Even when they are wrong. We might find clever ways of obeying, but in the end we are stuck obeying. If they shut down our parishes, as they did during Covid, putting physical health above spiritual health, we make do. If they cancel our priests, as they have done and continue to do, we make do. In making do, we pray for them, fast for them, maybe directly tell them when they are wrong, maybe restrict donations or whatever.

Somewheres else, I read where you say you are "loyal" to the pope.
In the Steve Ray video, he talks, too, about being "loyal" to him.

Can you explain to me what that "loyalty" entails?

And I really do appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. I am learning alot.
And your love for the Church is very apparent; you are well-grounded in the faith. So it is good to hear your take on things.

I understand 'obeying' the teachings of the Church ... being 'loyal" to them ...
but how do you define being loyal to the pope?

My issues are NOT just about the TLM Mass, as some seem to think. I am not so shallow. Or naive.

There are many things the pope supports that I personally do not agree with ... particularly reference the alphabet people situation in the Church. Priority given to climate change issues, (illegal) immigration issues, anti-American sentiment, anti-Conservatism, and the list could go on.

So, would you please take a few minutes to share on how to do 'loyalty' to a man that one disagrees with on many levels?

I am not being snarky or sarcastic in asking; my question is sincere. I honestly do not know that I will be able to do what you and others here appear to be doing, if my 'loyalty' to the pope is put to the test in the coming months.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Somewheres else, I read where you say you are "loyal" to the pope.
In the Steve Ray video, he talks, too, about being "loyal" to him.

Can you explain to me what that "loyalty" entails?

And I really do appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. I am learning alot.
And your love for the Church is very apparent; you are well-grounded in the faith. So it is good to hear your take on things.

I understand 'obeying' the teachings of the Church ... being 'loyal" to them ...
but how do you define being loyal to the pope?

My issues are NOT just about the TLM Mass, as some seem to think. I am not so shallow. Or naive.

There are many things the pope supports that I personally do not agree with ... particularly reference the alphabet people situation in the Church. Priority given to climate change issues, (illegal) immigration issues, anti-American sentiment, anti-Conservatism, and the list could go on.

So, would you please take a few minutes to share on how to do 'loyalty' to a man that one disagrees with on many levels?

I am not being snarky or sarcastic in asking; my question is sincere. I honestly do not know that I will be able to do what you and others here appear to be doing, if my 'loyalty' to the pope is put to the test in the coming months.

Oh, it's hard. It's trying to be obedient without doing so begrudgingly. It's controlling and disciplining my heart and emotions. I obviously don't do that so well. And it's mostly now it is thinking about the office rather than the person in that office. It's stopping and praying when I would rather just complain. We owe the office holder of the papacy an abundance of prayers. So I try.

I hope this helps. It has already been very trying. I hope I endure.

 

[mourningdove~]

Oh, it's hard. It's trying to be obedient without doing so begrudgingly. It's controlling and disciplining my heart and emotions. I obviously don't do that so well. And it's mostly now it is thinking about the office rather than the person in that office. It's stopping and praying when I would rather just complain. We owe the office holder of the papacy an abundance of prayers. So I try.

I hope this helps. It has already been very trying. I hope I endure.

It really does help.

So ... I hear many say that they 'fear' schism. Schism ... the buzzword in the Church at this time.

Not to sound dumb (again! lol), but what is it to be 'feared' about schism?
Yes, the Church would split in some way. Not good. But what would be 'fearful' about that?

... I'm not able to make the corrrelation yet, between the words "schism" and "fear".

Is the fear a 'fear of the Lord', as He wants for His Body to be united?
(Is that the fear about schism that persons are referring to?)

 

[rturner76]

I could be wrong here of course but I have a feeling that by "backwards: what he mean is that The Church should be focused of forgiveness and reconciliation that seeking out the sins of others and exposing them.

I understand that it is very comforting when you are doing the right thing and are being recognized for it. I also understand that forgiving your neighbor for their transgression like we all would like our transitions to be forgiven.

The Church we have today is much different than The Church of the middle-ages. The modern Church seems to be much more forgiving than the one of 1000

 

[chevyontheriver]

So ... I hear many say that they 'fear' schism. Schism ... the buzzword in the Church at this time.

Not to sound dumb (again! lol), but what is it to be 'feared' about schism?
Yes, the Church would split in some way. Not good. But what would be 'fearful' about that?

... I'm not able to make the corrrelation yet, between the words "schism" and "fear".

Is the fear a 'fear of the Lord', as He wants for His Body to be united?
(Is that the fear about schism that persons are referring to?)

Schisms are harmful. They aren't easily remedied. The schism with the Orthodox is nearing 1000 years. Was that God's will? Is it God's will that it continues? Is it God's will that some revel in it? I think God hates schism even as God hates divorce.

Pope Francis does not fear schism, or so he says. Which is why he can alienate so many people without concern for the damage he is doing. Ideology is greater than people I guess.

The old issue has always been whether to keep ideological purity OR keep unity. It's awfully hard to keep both. Sometimes you have to take a stand even if it alienates people. Sometimes you have to bend. Sometimes we have to excommunicate people. Sometimes we have to repent of our bull headedness.

 

[mourningdove~]

Schisms are harmful. They aren't easily remedied. The schism with the Orthodox is nearing 1000 years. Was that God's will? Is it God's will that it continues? Is it God's will that some revel in it? I think God hates schism even as God hates divorce.

Pope Francis does not fear schism, or so he says. Which is why he can alienate so many people without concern for the damage he is doing. Ideology is greater than people I guess.

The old issue has always been whether to keep ideological purity OR keep unity. It's awfully hard to keep both. Sometimes you have to take a stand even if it alienates people. Sometimes you have to bend. Sometimes we have to excommunicate people. Sometimes we have to repent of our bull headedness.

I have become greatly concerned for the state of the Church 'as a whole' ... the ENTIRE Body of Christ, including our separated brothers and sisters in the Protestant Churches ... for all the disunity that we know amongst ourselves.

Truly, I know many Protestants who dearly love the Lord, and are living godly lives.
They are all part of the Body of Christ, unless, of course, one holds to the belief (?) that only Catholics go to heaven.
Pre-Vatican II, we were taught that ... only Catholics go to heaven ... but the public messaging on that has changed since Vatican II.
I'm not clear where the Church stands on that issue now., but I personally do not believe that only Catholics go to heaven.
(If that makes me a heretic, I'm guessing someone here will tell me! lol)

In John 17, after praying for the disciples, the Lord prays for all believers:

“I do not pray for these , but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Unity in Christ is important to Him. I truly believe that.
So I do believe it is important to attempt to establish and retain unity within the Body of Christ. But at what cost?
I guess that is a question we each need to decide for ourselves ...

( )