Pope = Antichrist? from lcms website

[hsilgne]

No,

Actually he is saying that according to the Roman Catholic Church that works produce faith not that they save you.

I'm sorry my friend, you are mistaken. Please take time to investigate this yourself. Please consider, if you look for "Catholic Answers" from anti catholics, you are looking in the wrong place.

Whereas the Lutheran Church states the opposite that Works are a fruit of faith received in sanctification from the Holy Spirit.

Are you aware that Luther, in many instances, edited scripture from it's original text.

One example being, Romans 5:1, he changed it from "justified by faith" to "justified by faith ALONE".


Peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[SPALATIN]

I'm sorry my friend, you are mistaken. Please take time to investigate this yourself. Please consider, if you look for "Catholic Answers" from anti catholics, you are looking in the wrong place.



Are you aware that Luther, in many instances, edited scripture from it's original text.

One example being, Romans 5:1, he changed it from "justified by faith" to "justified by faith ALONE".


Peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

1 Nun wir denn sind gerecht geworden durch den Glauben, so haben wir Frieden mit Gott durch unsern HERRN Jesus Christus,

Translated from the Luther Bibel 1545:

now we are fairly become by the faith, then we have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

Faith in Christ alone maybe but we can't just put faith in a vacuum. Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit and not something we obtain of itself. Faith also must be invested in something. In the case of Christianity it is invested in Christ who alone is worthy.

I think there is some misconception of how Luther meant faith alone by those in the Roman Catholic Church. We mean that we don't need to do works to earn salvation so on that count faith alone in Christ alone is the better statement.

 

[hsilgne]

1 Nun wir denn sind gerecht geworden durch den Glauben, so haben wir Frieden mit Gott durch unseren HERRN Jesus Christus,

La paix à vous au nom de Jésus Christ. Unfortunaltely, je comprends seulement l'anglais et un litlle français. S'il vous plaît respond dans l'anglais.

 

[pmcleanj]

This is an official moderator post


Please note that this is the congregational forum for Confessional Lutherans of the LCMS/WELS/ELS/LCC synods. According to Christian Forums rules, 2.2b. The Congregation subforums only allow debate between people belonging to the Congregation - others can only post fellowship and ask questions. This is not the appropriate place for non-Lutherans to accuse Luther of mistranslations nor to debate Lutheran doctrines.


Furthermore, in referencing the words of websites or other posters, please do not attribute meanings or intentions that the original poster did not actually express.

The LCMS website does not, in fact, pass any judgement on our brother and sister Christians at OBOB nor accuse them of hating scripture (it speaks very precisely about the office of the Pope).

Similarly, the words "Yes, an excellent example of the a posteriori view of faith: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. IOW, Works follow faith, therefore they are caused by faith. They do not, however, produce faith, neither do they measure faith." do NOT attribute any doctrine, false or true, to the Roman Catholic church. These words constitute a statement that stands alone, and do not justify any "corrective" debating by non-Lutherans.



Regards,
Pamela

 

[hsilgne]

No,

Actually he is saying that according to the Roman Catholic Church that works produce faith not that they save you.

Again my friend, I must reiterate that this statement you made is false. If you do not agree with me, please be so kind as to show me where in the Catholic Catechism this is stated.

Peace in Him.

 

[hsilgne]

This is an official moderator post


Please note that this is the congregational forum for Confessional Lutherans of the LCMS/WELS/ELS/LCC synods. According to Christian Forums rules, 2.2b. The Congregation subforums only allow debate between people belonging to the Congregation - others can only post fellowship and ask questions. This is not the appropriate place for non-Lutherans to accuse Luther of mistranslations nor to debate Lutheran doctrines.


Furthermore, in referencing the words of websites or other posters, please do not attribute meanings or intentions that the original poster did not actually express.

The LCMS website does not, in fact, pass any judgement on our brother and sister Christians at OBOB nor accuse them of hating scripture (it speaks very precisely about the office of the Pope).

Similarly, the words "Yes, an excellent example of the a posteriori view of faith: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. IOW, Works follow faith, therefore they are caused by faith. They do not, however, produce faith, neither do they measure faith." do NOT attribute any doctrine, false or true, to the Roman Catholic church. These words constitute a statement that stands alone, and do not justify any "corrective" debating by non-Lutherans.



Regards,
Pamela

My appologies.

Peace in Him.

 

[pmcleanj]

La paix à vous au nom de Jésus Christ. Unfortunaltely, je comprends seulement l'anglais et un litlle français. S'il vous plaît respond dans l'anglais.

Malheureusment, (que veut dire "unfortunately" en anglais), le mot pour "little" est "un peu de". Vous utilisez la forme "S'il vous plaît", alors il faut que vous utilisez aussi la forme "vous" dans l'imperatif: repondez, pas "respond".

D'ou en Canada venez vous? Pas de Quebec, je croix! Mais, mois n'en plus; je viens d'Alberta.

Et, meme si je suis du plus du moins bilingue en francais, j'ai aussi apprene un peu d'allemandais. Si on veut dire quelque chose en comment Luther a tranduisie la Bible, on doit peut-etre comprends un peu de la lange danse laquelle il la a tranduisie, n'est-ce pas?

Comment fait-on la cedille, la circonflexe, et les autres accents? Je crois que j'ecrit en francais meilleurs par stilo!

 

[hsilgne]

Malheureusment, (que veut dire "unfortunately" en anglais), le mot pour "little" est "un peu de". Vous utilisez la forme "S'il vous plaît", alors il faut que vous utilisez aussi la forme "vous" dans l'imperatif: repondez, pas "respond".

D'ou en Canada venez vous? Pas de Quebec, je croix! Mais, mois n'en plus; je viens d'Alberta.

Et, meme si je suis du plus du moins bilingue en francais, j'ai aussi apprene un peu d'allemandais. Si on veut dire quelque chose en comment Luther a tranduisie la Bible, on doit peut-etre comprends un peu de la lange danse laquelle il la a tranduisie, n'est-ce pas?

Comment fait-on la cedille, la circonflexe, et les autres accents? Je crois que j'ecrit en francais meilleurs par stilo!

Bonjour!

hehe! Sorry, I was trying to make a point. I did, however state that I know "LITTLE" french - although as you point out, I made an error in my french canadian translation to that point.

Yes, you are correct, I am not from Quebec rather from Ontario. However, my father is from Quebec. Unforunatley for me, he did not teach me french. So the little I do "know" is from overhearing and from school which is not consistant with "Canadian" french.

No offense intended.

La paix à vous

 

[pmcleanj]

Bonjour!hehe! Sorry, I was trying to make a point. I did, however state that I know "LITTLE" french - although as you point out, I made an error in my french canadian translation to that point.

But you did at least manage to make the accents and circumflex. I'm not really computer-illiterate, but that's one of the niceties of posting that I've never figured out.

 

[hsilgne]

But you did at least manage to make the accents and circumflex. I'm not really computer-illiterate, but that's one of the niceties of posting that I've never figured out.

You need to(at least on my computer) go and "tell" the computer you are using a "french Canadian" keyboard.

Good Luck!

 

[KEPLER]

1 Nun wir denn sind gerecht geworden durch den Glauben, so haben wir Frieden mit Gott durch unsern HERRN Jesus Christus,

Translated from the Luther Bibel 1545:

now we are fairly become by the faith, then we have peace with God through Jesus Christ.

Good reply. Most excellent.

A minor quibble with the translation: it wants to be stronger. "gerecht geworden" is a pretty strong contruction: it implies a past action action that has been completed, so: made righteous. "durch den Glauben" is also pretty strong...it's an accusative contruction that pretty much excludes anything but what is listed: "through the faith".

"Now having been made righteous through [the] faith, therefore we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Curiously, other than the "exclusive" nature of the accusative construction, there is no word alone (allein; einsam) present anywhere...

Hmm, imagine that.

Kepler

 

[LutherNut]

Malheureusment, (que veut dire "unfortunately" en anglais), le mot pour "little" est "un peu de". Vous utilisez la forme "S'il vous plaît", alors il faut que vous utilisez aussi la forme "vous" dans l'imperatif: repondez, pas "respond".

D'ou en Canada venez vous? Pas de Quebec, je croix! Mais, mois n'en plus; je viens d'Alberta.

Et, meme si je suis du plus du moins bilingue en francais, j'ai aussi apprene un peu d'allemandais. Si on veut dire quelque chose en comment Luther a tranduisie la Bible, on doit peut-etre comprends un peu de la lange danse laquelle il la a tranduisie, n'est-ce pas?

Comment fait-on la cedille, la circonflexe, et les autres accents? Je crois que j'ecrit en francais meilleurs par stilo!

I ran this through an online translator... and I laughed out loud!
I guess it really loses something in the "translation".

Unfortunately, (that means "Unfortunately" in English), the word for "Little" is " little of ". You use form "Please ", then it is necessary that you also use form "you" in imperative: answer, not "Respond".
Where from in Canada come to you? No Quebec, me crucifix! But, month not on top of that; I come from Alberta.
And, even if I am of the most least bilingual in French, I also have learn little of allemandais. If they want to tell anything there how Luther has tranduisie the Bible, they owe perhaps understand little of wrap in swaddling clothes it dance which he has it tranduisie, is not it?
How do they make the cedilla, circumflex, and other accents? I think that I ecrit in French better by fountain pen!

 

[pmcleanj]

I ran this through an online translator... and I laughed out loud!
I guess it really loses something in the "translation".

Oh, too funny! It does a good job of picking up the spelling errors, though -- "croix" instead of "crois", "mois" instead of "moi". I should use that technique to check my work next time I work up the courage to post in French.

 

[KagomeShuko]

All those darn accents. My sister seems to know all the ASCII codes for those things (Alt+a series of numbers). I don't know 'em. I have to look at the key stroke guide or whatever it is called in the accessories menu.

Ah, je besoin etudier francais. J'ai etude' francais pour six ans dans l'ecole, mais je n'est pas etudier francais maintenant. J'ai pense' pour dix seconds pour le mot "jaune" parce que en television un homme dit, "What color jersey is awarded to the leader of the Tour de Frace?"

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Cary.Melvin]

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

Of the Antichrist
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.)

[Adopted 1932]

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)


I was unaware that this was the LCMS official position! huh. But if the pope believes that Jesus is the Christ, then how could he be... antichrist? What do y'all think?

Doesn't the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification Clear Up this mis-understanding?

 

[Tetzel]

Doesn't the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification Clear Up this mis-understanding?

No. Not all Lutherans are represented by the LWF. None of the churches represented in this sub-forum are part of the LWF. Furthermore, I've noticed that many Roman Catholics don't care at all about the Joint Declaration and that even among those who do acknowledge the declatation, both sides of the issue carry different interpretations of the declaration. So it is not worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[BigNorsk]

Good reply. Most excellent.

A minor quibble with the translation: it wants to be stronger. "gerecht geworden" is a pretty strong contruction: it implies a past action action that has been completed, so: made righteous. "durch den Glauben" is also pretty strong...it's an accusative contruction that pretty much excludes anything but what is listed: "through the faith".

"Now having been made righteous through [the] faith, therefore we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Curiously, other than the "exclusive" nature of the accusative construction, there is no word alone (allein; einsam) present anywhere...

Hmm, imagine that.

Kepler

Luther specifically adresses that complaint, indeed that very phrase in his writing "On Translating". He makes it quite clear that to leave off the "alone" would be poor German.

People seem to have this rather strange notion that the best job of translating is always count the words and produce the same number in the translation. If that was the case, we would just put the words in a computer and have it spit out the best translation.

Marv

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Luther specifically adresses that complaint, indeed that very phrase in his writing "On Translating". He makes it quite clear that to leave off the "alone" would be poor German.

Kep--you are a smart guy...well educated and the like. Don't know how much German you have studied though. Have you ever read "On Translating"? I would be quite interested in your take on it.

Another couple of questions...now not talking theology here...just translation. While the allein seemed necessary to Luther in the German...was it necessary (translation wise) to include it in English...and why? I found when I studied German that I would often not put the word allein in a English to German translation because the world "alone" was not in the English text but I noticed that my instructor would...that's why I ask if it really was necessary to include the word in the English translation.

Thanks for your insight on this.

Dixie

 

[KEPLER]

Kep--you are a smart guy...well educated and the like. Don't know how much German you have studied though. Have you ever read "On Translating"? I would be quite interested in your take on it.

Right! Don't confuse "educated" with "smart".

No I have not read "On translating" (I know, Scott...more spankings). But I plan to, since Marv provided me with a link. Perhaps this weekend, and I can give a report.

Another couple of questions...now not talking theology here...just translation. While the allein seemed necessary to Luther in the German...was it necessary (translation wise) to include it in English...and why? I found when I studied German that I would often not put the word allein in a English to German translation because the world "alone" was not in the English text but I noticed that my instructor would...that's why I ask if it really was necessary to include the word in the English translation.

Thanks for your insight on this.

Dixie

Hmmm, well, the difficulty I have with this is, Ich kann ein bisschen Duetsch sprechen, maar niet so wel. Mij Nederlandse taal is veel beter!

When I try to speak/write German, I tend to "fall" into Dutch.

Anyways, I can understand why when translating G-->E, someone might be tempted to add "alone" in the English, because the accustative contruction (durch den Glaube) is very strong: it really does imply: through this (and nothing else!)

But as for translating E-->G, it seems that adding "allein" is...

Well, if we say in English, "through faith", that does not necessarily imply: and nothing else. The English construction simply is not as exclusive as the German is. So I can't see why your professor would add "allein" if going from E-->G, and the E didn't have it.

Greek also uses an accustaive structure, but in all honesty, my Greek isn't close to good enough to make such a judgment. Filo should know.

Kepler

 

[Simon_Templar]

> That in itself means nothing. Even Satan and demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

oh yeah, you have a good point there! lol.

So that must be why I always get warned when I post scripture over in OBOB, cuz they're antichrist (based on lcms doctrine) and thus despise the scriptures. A couple times I've posted straight-up words of Christ, not even adding any comments of my own, and the post got deleted..... huh. learn something new everyday.

Perhaps this is because all of the forums have rules which specificly forbid debating doctrinal issues if you are not a member of the deonomination. Perhaps it isn't the content that is getting your posts deleted, but the intent.