Pope = Antichrist? from lcms website

[ILoveYeshua]

Perhaps this is because all of the forums have rules which specificly forbid debating doctrinal issues if you are not a member of the deonomination. Perhaps it isn't the content that is getting your posts deleted, but the intent.

truth be the intent, of posting Christ's words

 

[FLA2760]

Excellent point... therefore faith alone obviously, is not enough to save our souls.

Hi
Actually we are saved by faith alone. (Eph 2:8,9) When we put our faith in Christ's sacrificial death, his burial, and resurrection we are saved. ( 1 Cor 15 1-4) At the moment of belief we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption, (Eph 4:30) God sets His seal of ownership on us! Jesus said in John 5:24 " I tell you the TRUTH, whoever BELIEVES him who sent me HAS eternal life and WILL NOT be condemmed; he has CROSSED OVER from death to LIFE" NIV. The Apostle Paul speaking of our position in Christ wrote; "giving thanks to the Father who has QUALIFIED US to be partakers of the INHERITANCE of the saints in light. He HAS DELIVERED US from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the SON of His love, in whom WE HAVE REDEMPTION through HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS of sins.(COL 1:12-14)
GOD BLESS

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

I never thought the confessional accusation that the Papacy was anti-christ had much to do with Sola Fide.

I thought it had to do with the powers and privileges arrogated to that position by it's occupants, effectively setting themselves up as "godlings", or, probably more accurately, their effective ignorance of Christ, the office itself being little more than a bauble for the noble families of Europe to hand around to one another..

 

[Lacko]

Exactly.

The Office of the Papacy claimimg to be Christ's Vicar on Earth is reason enough for it to be termed an Anti-Christ.

The Office of the Papacy basically is stating it has the power and the authority the Holy Spirit only has.

Therefore, the office is against Christ.

I, full heartedly, agree with this statement and I think it is in fact the LCMS position.

As a bit of a side question,
LOL by agreeing with this did I just break one, or several, of the official rules?

 

[Tetzel]

I never thought the confessional accusation that the Papacy was anti-christ had much to do with Sola Fide.

I thought it had to do with the powers and privileges arrogated to that position by it's occupants, effectively setting themselves up as "godlings", or, probably more accurately, their effective ignorance of Christ, the office itself being little more than a bauble for the noble families of Europe to hand around to one another..

If you see preaching anything other than sola fide as leading people to their destruction, the two are quite related.

 

[judaica]

We should be careful to note here that this is speaking of the office of the papacy, not about individual men. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Bendict XVI) may indeed be a child of God, who are we to judge his heart? But the office stands in opposition to Christ's intent for the Church.

Kepler

I never understood that distinction. How could God allow a child of His to essentially occupy the office of the Anti-Christ?
In addition, to occupy an office is to carry out the role of that office. So for a person to occupy the office of the Anti-Christ, they would also be carrying out the goals of the Anti-Christ, and could not therefore, be considered christian.

Judaica

 

[judaica]

That in itself means nothing.
Even Satan and demons believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Yes, but they do not confess Him. Scripture tells us that whoever denies Christ is of God has the spirit of the Anti-Christ. The papacy has never, even in its darkest days, denied this.

Judaica

 

[night2day]

I never understood that distinction. How could God allow a child of His to essentially occupy the office of the Anti-Christ?

There are true believers in Jesus Christ who span throughout Christiandom regardless of denomination. Martin Luther refered to this as the "Invisible Church" of which there are no unbelievers. It's termed as "invisible" since only God can see who truly is a part of the Church.

However, of these Christians there are those who also believe, teach, and confess false doctrines and teachings. Among these would include doctrines which deny the Biblical teachings of Orginal Sin, the Real Presence of the Lord's Supper, Infant Baptism, Theology of the Cross, promotion of the "Rapture", etc. Yet, by grace, through faith, in Jesus Christ as their Savior....they are indeed believers in Him.

The reason why the Bible tells us to be wary of false teachings is it has the danger of leading us away from faith in Christ. Simply because of this unbiblical teachings should not be dismissed casually with "we all have Jesus" and that's the end of it. Biblical doctrine is important because the Bible makes it important. By the same token, while the risks of endangering faith in Christ are higher, that doesn't been true faith is not
present.

To give an example, a pope may very well hold that salvation comes by grace, through faith, through Jesus Christ alone and there is nothing he can do to earn it. However, he occupies an office as well as is a head of denomination which has countered this claim in centuries' past such as what was proclaimed at the Council of Trent (which labeled all those who believe they are justified by faith in Christ as condemned). The pope himself would be a Christian. The office itself, however, is positioned against Christ and is therefore not. The pope in this hypothetical situation would not be truly holding to the teachings of his denomination of course and would actually be technically in conflict with them.

In the end however, who is it the pope answers too, God or the Catholic church? The above pope has his sins forgiven and completely cleansed by Christ's blood as all believers in Him do.

In addition, to occupy an office is to carry out the role of that office. So for a person to occupy the office of the Anti-Christ, they would also be carrying out the goals of the Anti-Christ, and could not therefore, be considered christian.

How so? One should consider in times past there have been instances where God has placed His people in places and situations where He works through them to bring about His glory. It's not something we can always understand. Neither do we always see the actual outcome of His work.

Are we to point out herasy and doctrinal
errors where they's found? Indeed we are. However, to state an individidual is not Christian because of a certain office is not...is akin to stating any one of us can look within an individual's heart and state with 100% certainty where that person's faith lies within. And none but
God can do this.

All we can do is note and respond to is what is outwardly seen, confessed, and professed...and compare/contrast this with Biblical teaching.

 

[LutherNut]

Yes, but they do not confess Him. Scripture tells us that whoever denies Christ is of God has the spirit of the Anti-Christ. The papacy has never, even in its darkest days, denied this.

Judaica

But that's not the lone definition of antichrist.
The ultimate is the message of the Gospel, that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, suffered and died for the forgiveness of sins and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. Does that equate with confessing that Christ is of God, or does it entail something more than that?
Muslims will confess that Jesus Christ is of God, but they are not saved. It's confessing that Jesus Christ is of God and that He did what He did for us with no merit on our part, and fully believing that, that is the key here.

The papacy does indeed confess that Jesus Christ is of God, but it also claims that of itself, and demands belief in that as well for salvation, or else one is condemned. And that, by definition, is antichrist.


The Unshod One

 

[night2day]

...Muslims will confess that Jesus Christ is of God, but they are not saved. It's confessing that Jesus Christ is of God and that He did what He did for us with no merit on our part, and fully believing that, that is the key here...

Technically, Muslims reduce Jesus (who they term as "Isa") as a mere prophet, but also the second greatest prophet after Muhommed. One with correct teachings on how to live. But certainly not God.

Islam within it's various forms is a works-oriented religion. In fact, every belief system outside of Christianity is works-oriented in one form or another. It's all it can be.

Christianity teaches Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity and God Himself. Which, therefore, is the only way Jesus would have been able too be able to live a perfect life under the Law in our stead, and choose to pay the ultimate price for our not being able to do so. Any normal human being, because they are by nature sinful would not be able to even attempt such a thing. Jesus was not a normal human, He was also God Himself.

So, wouldn't that make the key alot more basic: Being brought to faith in who Jesus was and is...and what He has done for us?

As noted, It's more than knowing of Jesus' existance or acknowledging why some claim He came. One needs to have faith. And only the Holy Spirit can work this within a person.

 

[ricg]

Yes, but they do not confess Him. Scripture tells us that whoever denies Christ is of God has the spirit of the Anti-Christ. The papacy has never, even in its darkest days, denied this.

Judaica

I believe that the Confessions regard the passage speaking of the deniers of Christ as having the spirit of the antichrist as referring to the many antichrists as opposed to the capital "A" unique Anti-Christ described elsewhere in Scripture.

It is also worth noting that the word Antichrist is greek, not latin, so the "anti," as I understand it, carries the meaning "in place of" rather than the simpler latin meaning we associate with the term, i.e., "opposing." Of course, context makes clear that the Antichrist also opposes Christ. I only point this out, because the greek term seems to correspond with the self-proclaimed role of the pope as "Vicar of Christ," though one shouldn't read to much into that.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

deleted

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Doesn't the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification Clear Up this mis-understanding?

Dr. Daniel Preus responds to this document with his take. Read it if you like. Justification is a total encompassment of what happens in the church, not just a word shift that can be "re-translated" in word semantics. Dr. Preus points out that the historical positions of Trent remain and are the barriers to reaching any consensus soon.

Luther and the Mass by Dr. Daniel Preus

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic


We are here to serve God, not solve God. - Cosmic

 

[Studeclunker]

Luther did himself proclaim the Pope to be an anti-Christ. Whether or not this office is the Antichrist mentioned in, for instance, Revelations, we have yet to see.

I have no other choice than to take the position of; 'the Roman Catholic church is in serious error. They are a Christian institution. The Papal office is, in and of itself, a problem. They remain in this, and many other errors, and refuse to correct them. However, the majority of Roman Catholics are truely Christian in all aspects of the definition.'

Martin Luther did confess that he didn't have all the answers. To those he did have, he said, "Here I stand, I can do no other."

This has been an interesting thread. It revealed that there is still a lot of hurt between the Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Some of the remarks made, though instructive, have been... unhelpful. There has, however, been a running battle between the Lutheran and Roman Catholic churches that can't be ignored. So, I suppose a few inflamitory remarks are to be expected.

Some of the remarks posted by our RC brother were instructive and interesting. I, for one, appreciated the other view.

Is the Pope the Antichrist? Well, I can't say. Regardless of what has been written on the subject. There is one thing I will say though. I'm sure all of you have heard the saying, "Your goose is cooked!" As in to say that one has been caught and about to be severely punished. What most may not know, is that the German word for goose is Hess. And Hess was Luther's predecessor in the Reformation. The Pope ordered the man burnt at the stake for espousing the same ideas that Luther did. Hence the German saying, "Your Goose is cooked!" And Martin Luther's understandable fear for his own life. The German people weren't referring to the bird, but the man. The Roman Catholics have demonstrated that they will exercise deadly force when they have the power. They still squash any other denomination where they have the sway of the government to this very day. Severity may have changed, intent though, remains the same.

With all the errors our RC brothers and sisters, espouse, at least they didn't institute 'biblical chriticism', a uniquely Lutheran viewpoint, nor do they actively, openly, worship Ashera in any of thier churches. We, as Lutherans, should be very careful of throwing bricks in glass houses. Our (as in general denomination, all the acronyms together) corporate laundry isn't very clean either.

The various Lutheran houses need to communicate better between themselves and to bring into correction the brothers and sisters that have strayed. Let the Antichrist take care of himself. The Lord will put him in play when it suits him. We have a more important job to concentrate on right now.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Luther reached a theological conclusion based on Scripture. If we are going to grapple with the terms, let us at least understand what was at stake. For Luther, justification was everything. The church stood or fell if it was gained or lost. Anyone willing to address the bare conclusion and the afronting label must first recognize what was at stake: justification, the work of the cross, the Church.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

We are to serve God, not solve God - Cosmic

 

[Studeclunker]

Well said Cosmic.

 

[Annova]

Well I'm not going to debate this.

I'm a Wels Lutheran so that pretty much says what I believe. And no I don't believe in the Catholic ways or that the Pope is the successor.

I mean with all the Pope's throughout the years, how is it decided who's the successor? Are they all?

 

[walloffire]

We are to serve God, not solve God - Cosmic

Well-put

We are to love God with???????
---ALL our heart
---ALL our mind
---ALL our soul
---ALL our strength

AND the second is like it: Love your neighbor AS yourSELF