poor uzzah

wildboar said:

A framed question is simply a question that is designed to get an answer to a specific question. It's the opposite of saying, "Hey, what do you think about Matthew 28:19?" I'm interested in a serious conversation and don't know why can't just answer the simple and direct questions I provided. I don't know why you would refuse to answer a simple grammatical question.

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I don't know why you'd need to ask it if it's already been answered using simpler terms.

You seem pretty dogmatic about the idea that Matthew 28:19-20 no longer applies when it comes to discipleship but seem very vague when it comes to what has taken its place.

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I'm dogmatic about the idea of it being for some and not others, not that it's inapplicable. If you remember my statement a few posts ago...

Does all of Scripture only apply to those who happened to be present when it was written or spoken of? For instance, does the Epistle to the Romans only have application to the church that existed in Rome in the first century?

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It applies especially to its target audience and its target audience must be kept in mind when one is reading it. Not all are called to raise people up in the faith, Paul touches on this concept of gifts in at least 3 places. Just as not all are called to baptize others, just as not all are called to be baptized.

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Again, you might try putting my statements together.

I'm just trying to get some specific answers. I believe that discipling is done through baptism and teaching. Could you provide a similar statement describing how you believe discipling is done?

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No, I'm not going to provide ONE statement. I'm going to go tell you to read all of Paul's writings and look at the Gospels. It's done via relationship.

So do you think there could be multiple chief cornerstones as well since the Bible does not specifically say in the passage that Jesus is the chief cornerstone?

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Red herring. We're talking about foundation not cornerstones.

Regardless, my original statement was that the church was built on the foundation of the apostles. This remains true whether or not multiple parties are involved. If someone says they built a house out of brick are you going to call them a liar and say that there was mortar there too?

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Well that depends on the context. If they imply that brick was the only thing it was made of, then yes, I would call them a liar. Just like your context implies that the apostles and the sacraments are the only foundation due to your extreme focus on them.

godschild said:

I don't know why you'd need to ask it if it's already been answered using simpler terms.

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Because these specific questions have not been answered. If you are unwilling to answer then I guess we need to stop the conversation because this is not going anywhere.

godschild said:

Red herring. We're talking about foundation not cornerstones.

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It's not a red herring, it's an argument from analogy.

godschild said:

Well that depends on the context. If they imply that brick was the only thing it was made of, then yes, I would call them a liar. Just like your context implies that the apostles and the sacraments are the only foundation due to your extreme focus on them.

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My "context" does not imply that. I never said that the sacraments were the foundation of the church. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation and Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone. Sometimes the Scriptures simply speak of Jesus Christ as the foundation of the church since everything finds its source in Him. Through baptism and teaching people are made disciples.

godschild said:

No, I'm not going to provide ONE statement. I'm going to go tell you to read all of Paul's writings and look at the Gospels. It's done via relationship.

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There is great emphasis in Scripture as to how the members of the body of Christ are to treat one another and those outside of the church as well but I have yet to see proof that the act of making disciples is done primarily via relationship. There does have to be some relationship there in any type of discipleship situation but you can have many relationships that have absolutely nothing to do with making a disciple. So how does this relationship process result in disciples? And where do you find this emphasized in the writings of Paul and the Gospels? Let's pretend I want to go out and make disciples. What exactly should I do?

wildboar said:

Because these specific questions have not been answered. If you are unwilling to answer then I guess we need to stop the conversation because this is not going anywhere.

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And I'm telling you they have been answered if you bothered to look through what I've already written.

It's not a red herring, it's an argument from analogy.

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It doesn't relate to the foundation. That makes it a red herring.

My "context" does not imply that. I never said that the sacraments were the foundation of the church.

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Your context:

I wouldn't the so-called Great Commission as applying to every individual Christian either. I believe the commission was given to the church through the Apostles and the church as a whole carries it out. The church is built on the foundation of the Apostles.

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And your foundation:

The Church is "the congregation of saints" among whom the Gospel is purely taught and the Sacraments are correctly administered. The Church is the one assembly of believers. It is not many local assemblies but one assembly. The local congregation manifests the assembly of all believers. As someone else puts it, "When we worship together, gathered in the Divine Name and receiving the saving Gospel and interceding for the world, and partaking of the Lamb's Feast, we are not present with some piece, some miniscule fraction of the Church. We are present with the whole of it. Hebrews 12 bears this out when it describes what you have come to when you gather as Church, where there is the blood that speaks a better word than Abel's. But it is also shown in numerous other ways in the Sacred Scriptures. Find Jesus the Lord, the Head of the Body, and you will invariably find not pieces, but the whole of the Body with Him."

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Sounds to me like you're saying the body can't exist without the sacraments.

The Apostles and prophets are the foundation and Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone. Sometimes the Scriptures simply speak of Jesus Christ as the foundation of the church since everything finds its source in Him. Through baptism and teaching people are made disciples.

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Prove it.

There is great emphasis in Scripture as to how the members of the body of Christ are to treat one another and those outside of the church as well but I have yet to see proof that the act of making disciples is done primarily via relationship.

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Then you're relying too much on proof and need to start trusting God and other people. Just because they're not Christians doesn't mean they can't be loved and it certainly doesn't mean you can't hang out with them.

There does have to be some relationship there in any type of discipleship situation but you can have many relationships that have absolutely nothing to do with making a disciple.

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True. But relationships really aren't effective if they're not intentional. That's one of the things one learns if they're to be a teacher, after all. Without relationship, there is no respect, and without respect there is no willingness to learn. And without that, you have a failed teacher.

So how does this relationship process result in disciples? And where do you find this emphasized in the writings of Paul and the Gospels?

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How does ANY relationship result in trust? How does any relationship result in time spent together? How does any relationship result in both people sometimes acting and talking like each other? Where do Paul and Jesus emphasize love? Where does Paul talk about becoming all things to all men? Where does Jesus talk about loving your brother?

Let's pretend I want to go out and make disciples. What exactly should I do?

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Why would you want to pretend?

jackero said:

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

was this fair?

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He was disrespecfull to what God had said about touching the Ark, anyone touching it will die, God stays buy his word, humans should listion and lean to do as God says or pay the price!