poor uzzah

[jackero]

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

was this fair?

 

[calluna]

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

Uzzah showed faithlessness. Trying to do well is doomed attempt at works salvation, like that of the man who gathered wood on the Sabbath. He died, too. Warning!

was this fair?

That's nothing. Don't be afraid of those who kill only the body, fear Him who can throw body and soul into hell. Though why Calvinism should consider anything unfair, goodness knows.

 

[wildboar]

Uzzah stands as a warning against all who claim to be doing something because they were called by God--but what they are doing is not given by God for them to do--self-proclaimed evangelists, women ministers, or any of the other ways in which people by their actions declare themselves wiser than God.

 

[calluna]

Uzzah stands as a warning against all who claim to be doing something because they were called by God--but what they are doing is not given by God for them to do--self-proclaimed evangelists, women ministers, or any of the other ways in which people by their actions declare themselves wiser than God.

Women ministers, abhorrent to God. But self-proclaimed evangelists? Which one isn't?

 

[wildboar]

According to Romans 10, it is the church's duty to send forth ministers. A person may feel an internal call, but if that call is not confirmed externally by the church then the calling is not from God.

 

[PETE_]

I would say that alot of the blame lies with David. At least in this case it was only one that died, not 70,000.

There are consequences for disobeying God that even extend to those around you.

 

[calluna]

According to Romans 10, it is the church's duty to send forth ministers.

That being the Lutheran church, I suppose.

 

[Bobinator]

Uzzah stands as a warning against all who claim to be doing something because they were called by God--but what they are doing is not given by God for them to do--self-proclaimed evangelists, women ministers, or any of the other ways in which people by their actions declare themselves wiser than God.

The severity of Uzzah's judgment is for the benefit of Christians throughout the ages. It falls in line with the judgment God placed on Moses for being angry and striking the rock twice for the people to receive water. Moses was not allowed into the Promised Land because he gave the wrong testimony.

I don't condone women pastorships as an institution, but I wouldn't consider it abhorrent. The question is whether you are doing God's will for your life. Besides, all of us are to be ministers, not necessarily as defined by society today. Even the role of modern day pastors isn't what it should be like. In the early church, people met in homes and ministered to each other. The pastors would shepard others until they were able to start a small group in their own home. This process allowed Christianity to spread all over the Asia (Middle East) in just a few years. This kind of organization exists in underground churches in mainland China. It's estimated there are over 1.2 million Christians there. That's over 4 times the population of the United States!

This is why tribulation must come, so we can go back to the ways of the early church. It is only under this church system that God can prosper. What the modern church is doing today is very much like what Uzzah did. That is why God's judgment is falling upon the church and will be smashed and persecuted during these last days.

 

[PETE_]

Uzzah's wrong was very clearly spelled out

Female ministers....not so much

 

[Zebra1552]

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

was this fair?

Yes. He showed irreverence in even touching the ark. I fail to see why God's response would be unfair.

 

[wildboar]

That being the Lutheran church, I suppose.

Getting a little snarky there? I certainly don't limit the church to that which bares the name Lutheran. Having the person sent by the church holds the person to a certain level of accountability. It's good for the person being sent to have that support and its good for the church for that person to be accountable--it's too easy for individuals to go off on some hobby horse or come to some false conclusion.

 

[wildboar]

Then would you mind defining for us what is meant by 'self-proclaimed evangelists'? And who, if anyone, you identify as members of this species?

There are plenty I could list but Billy Graham is probably the most famous. If Graham had had the oversight provided by a sending church perhaps he would not have been so quick to make his statements in which he claimed that some were saved apart from faith in Christ and wouldn't be unsure of his own salvation because he wasn't sure if he did enough good works. As it stands many consider Billy Graham to be infallible and will defend anything he says.

 

[calluna]

There are plenty I could list

There are?

but Billy Graham is probably the most famous. If Graham had had the oversight provided by a sending church perhaps he would not have been so quick to make his statements in which he claimed that some were saved apart from faith in Christ

People can be saved if they have not heard the gospel. Graham has made far more controversial comments than that, and he has been backed de facto by many of the mainline denominations in the West, even Roman Catholicism. One can hardly describe Graham's evangelism as self-proclaimed.

and wouldn't be unsure of his own salvation because he wasn't sure if he did enough good works. As it stands many consider Billy Graham to be infallible and will defend anything he says.

I agree on that. But there are plenty of denominations that are heretical, in practice if not on paper, and there are totally independent evangelists in the world who preach a much more orthodox gospel than most denominational ones. Ideally, evangelists should be sent out by churches, but this is a world very far from ideal, and it is no good waiting for the churches, that are now apostate (if only because they approve Graham). Any born again person is an evangelist of a sort, and does not answer to any church, but to God alone.

 

[wildboar]

I agree on that. But there are plenty of denominations that are heretical, in practice if not on paper, and there are totally independent evangelists in the world who preach a much more orthodox gospel than most denominational ones. Ideally, evangelists should be sent out by churches, but this is a world very far from ideal, and it is no good waiting for the churches, that are now apostate (if only because they approve Graham).

Just because some people are doing things wrong does not give us the right to go around what God has put in place. That is what Uzza did and I have a great deal more respect for him, he made a snap decision based on what was happening at the moment. If anyone could argue it would be him that he certainly couldn't wait for those who were supposed to steady the ark to steady it. But we must have faith in God. God knows best.

 

[calluna]

Just because some people are doing things wrong does not give us the right to go around what God has put in place.

What has God put in place?

 

[wildboar]

What has God put in place?

The church.

 

[MrPolo]

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

was this fair?

Additionally, what Uzzah showed us was a typology that the Ark was not to be touched by man. Catholics actually understand this as part of many aspects of typology for Mary. Mary in the Catholic Church is seen as the NT type of the Ark of the Covenant. There are a number of obvious parallels between the Ark and Mary in Scripture. See here for a handy reference chart. We understand the Uzzah incident to be indicative of her perpetual virginity, i.e. neither was to be touched by man. And we believe Mary as the fulfillment of the Ark is also indicative of her immaculate nature.

 

[calluna]

The church.

Where?

 

[jackero]

Additionally, what Uzzah showed us was a typology that the Ark was not to be touched by man. Catholics actually understand this as part of many aspects of typology for Mary. Mary in the Catholic Church is seen as the NT type of the Ark of the Covenant. There are a number of obvious parallels between the Ark and Mary in Scripture. We understand the Uzzah incident to be indicative of her perpetual virginity, i.e. neither was to be touched by man. And we believe Mary as the fulfillment of the Ark is also indicative of her immaculate nature.

I did not know that analogy.

My take on the death at the treshing floor of Nacon is this:

Uzzah probably had the best of intensions, that is, to keep the ark from falling, but he was killed because intensions doesn't save. Many christians enter the wide gate, and/or act impulsively (and because of sinful nature, not according to God's way) in certain situations - Mat 7:13+ "For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

The path of Eternal Life is among other things built not on intensions, but on that which follows: Luk 6:44 "each tree is known by its own fruit", not its intension.

And all that has not so much to do with which church one belongs to, but with the personal relationship one has with God through Jesus Christ, so that I can run with endurance the race that is set before us (Heb 12:1) - with endurance, to finish the race. And not only to intend to finish it, but to run all the way through, past the treshing floor of Nacon.

So that (2Ti 4:7) "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

 

[wildboar]

Where?

Where does God institute the church, or are you looking for something more specific?

Additionally, what Uzzah showed us was a typology that the Ark was not to be touched by man. Catholics actually understand this as part of many aspects of typology for Mary. Mary in the Catholic Church is seen as the NT type of the Ark of the Covenant. There are a number of obvious parallels between the Ark and Mary in Scripture. See here for a handy reference chart. We understand the Uzzah incident to be indicative of her perpetual virginity, i.e. neither was to be touched by man. And we believe Mary as the fulfillment of the Ark is also indicative of her immaculate nature.

That is very interesting. I never thought of that. I don't hold to the doctrine that Mary was sinless but I do find the argument that she remained a virgin pretty compelling.