Polygamous-sect children ordered to stay in Texas custody

[Sphere]

Nobody sees this as a bad precedent for removing all children from parents who belong to unpopular religions?

This isn't about an unpopular religion, it's about a religion which employs child abuse by forcing underage girls to marry and be subjected to systematic sexual abuse.

Shouldn't there be some caution or safeguards put in place?

Yes, thank God there are. No religion can trample human rights.

Should all children of Muslims be removed from their homes?

If the muslim parents are sexually abusing their children, yes.

Should all children of Wiccans?

If the wiccan parents are sexually abusing their children, yes.

All children of Baptists?

If the baptists are sexually abusing their children, yes.

 

[ACougar]

I understand your concern, if a group of people is not popular and there are ugly rumors circulating about them... might they then be subject to the same treatment? As uncomfortable as I am with government excercising this kind of power, I'd be even more uncomfortableif this type of abuse was allowed to continue though...

The only thing we can do is insure that were the government ever to take action like this, and evidence to support the governments claims of abuse were not present... that those victimized by government would enjoy substantial legal recourse against both the government and it's agents.

Nobody sees this as a bad precedent for removing all children from parents who belong to unpopular religions?

Shouldn't there be some caution or safeguards put in place?

I've seen courts call it abuse to teach a child to believe in hell, or to teach children something is a sin if it's something one of their parents does.

And what if the mother is just as much of a victim as the child? If she's 18, too bad. Mom's treated as a criminal, not a victim.

I just don't think messes like this are best sorted out my mass action. Making judgments on the basis of generalizations about the parents' religion is a scary idea.

Should all children of Muslims be removed from their homes?

Should all children of Wiccans?

All children of Baptists?

 

[Crazy Liz]

But Liz, the compound (to my knowledge) was left alone until after they received the call from a child within the compound. When things like that occur, regardless of faith, CPS investigates.

Actually, I think the call came from someone in another state claiming to be in the compound.

Not if a child is in danger.

There was one call saying one child had been abused, and 400 children were considered in danger?

If that were true the majority of Americans and people from many other nations would be in jail, would they not?

Or have their children taken away, at least. Yes. I am afraid a judge or CPS worker could decide any religious belief is harmful to children. You seem to think the religious beliefs of this cult are harmful enough that no members should be allowed to keep their children.

Maybe to some people but not to me. If the mother has been indoctrinated too then the mother is just as much a victim.

Yet her children are being taken from her, just like everyone else. For a few days they let mothers of children under 5 stay with their children, but there is no law in Texas allowing them to let adult mothers stay with their children in protective custody, so all the mothers over age 18 have to go back and leave their kids in state hands.

Its about child endangerment, not religion.

The only evidence that 400 children are all in danger is their parents' religious beliefs.

Not unless they are being abused or harmed in anyway.

There is no evidence these 400 children are all being abused or harmed.

 

[TexasSky]

Actually, this case has never focused on "religious" beliefs. It has been pure and simply about the law. "Are children under the age of consent being sexually assaulted by adult males with the full knowledge of their parents?"

Whether that illegal act is occurring is the focus of all of this, not the belief of the parents. The fact that the parents try to justify such behavior in the name of religion is simply being ignored by the court, in the same way that parents who say they beat their children to the point of serious injury, in the name of a religion, are not allowed to circumvent the law.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

And they did avoid questions about letting underage get married and such on tv. They're hiding a lot of stuff and the state has every right to detain the children until everything is sorted out.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Actually, this case has never focused on "religious" beliefs. It has been pure and simply about the law. "Are children under the age of consent being sexually assaulted by adult males with the full knowledge of their parents?"

If that was all, then only the children being assaulted would be removed, and those in immediate danger.

Whether that illegal act is occurring is the focus of all of this, not the belief of the parents. The fact that the parents try to justify such behavior in the name of religion is simply being ignored by the court, in the same way that parents who say they beat their children to the point of serious injury, in the name of a religion, are not allowed to circumvent the law.

Without the religious belief, they would need to prove WHICH parents were abusing WHICH children. There is no basis, other than religious beliefs, for removing ALL the children from ALL the parents.

Before the removal, there was, at most, evidence that one, or perhaps a small number, of children had been abused.

 

[Crazy Liz]

And they did avoid questions about letting underage get married and such on tv. They're hiding a lot of stuff and the state has every right to detain the children until everything is sorted out.

So if a member of your congregation was accused of abusing a child, all the children could be removed from all the parents in your congregation until everything is sorted out?

 

[Caitlin.ann]

So if a member of your congregation was accused of abusing a child, all the children could be removed from all the parents in your congregation until everything is sorted out?

There is a difference. All of these people lived on a compound excluded from the outside world and all believed exactly the same doctrine. No one is telling a straight story either. There is a difference between many different families going to a church (and each going back to their respective homes) and people shutting out the rest of the world living in a compound.

 

[IisJustMe]

Actually, I think the call came from someone in another state claiming to be in the compound.

That appears to be the case, but what the law enforcement officers found there upon entry led them to believe the report to be true, and resulted in the appropriate action.

The only evidence that 400 children are all in danger is their parents' religious beliefs.

The temple's third floor had beds in it. With sperm stains on the sheets. Sounds like a really "religious" experience to me.

There is no evidence these 400 children are all being abused or harmed.

Wrong. There are teenagers in that compound who are under 16 who state they are married to sect members. Texas law forbids anyone under the age of 16 from marrying, even with parental permission. That is prima facia evidence of child abuse of a sexual nature. Your adamant stance tends to make one wonder if you're a sect apologist on here trying to make a case for your religion. No one in a true Christian view, with biblical understanding, would endorse this behavior otherwise.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

The temple's third floor had beds in it. With sperm stains on the sheets.

Where did you hear or read that? Links please. I'm not arguing, I'm actually really curious.

 

[TexasSky]

If that was all, then only the children being assaulted would be removed, and those in immediate danger.



Without the religious belief, they would need to prove WHICH parents were abusing WHICH children. There is no basis, other than religious beliefs, for removing ALL the children from ALL the parents.

Before the removal, there was, at most, evidence that one, or perhaps a small number, of children had been abused.

At this point, they have a message from a person claiming that a lot of girl's are being assaulted that way, they have the historical information that supports that the founder of the cult, and the "high prophet" is a convicted child molestor, they have, in custody, numerous girls under the age of 16 who are either currently pregnant, or already have children they seem to treat as their own, but who they refuse to state who the parents are.

And, you're mistaken about Texas Law in such cases.
If a CPS worker comes into your home and finds even ONE child abused, every child in that house is removed unless the people in the home agree to point out who abused the child, and remove that person from all contact with the child.

Given that these people will not say who abused the children who are clearly pregnant and under age, and that they "share housing", and that they will not tell the police which child lives in which household with which parent, CPS followed the same standard procedures they follow in every child sexual abuse case.

 

[ladyt28]

So Liz - exactly where do YOU draw the line? you seem to have such concern about children being removed - are you trying to say it is Never appropriate to remove children from their parents/home?

 

[Morcova]

All 400 of them?

No Liz your right, we should return all the children so they can return to their incestous marriages and rape.

What is wrong with you?

 

[uberd00b]

What is wrong with you?

I second that question, you're not making a cogent argument at all in this thread.

 

[IisJustMe]

Where did you hear or read that? Links please. I'm not arguing, I'm actually really curious.

How a hunting ground became a polygamous nightmare

This is an AP story posted on Fox News. It states one of the sheets had a long strand of hair, believed to be female.The reference to stained sheets was from Fox reporter who had talked to a San Angelo law enforcement officer. The officer said they had stained sheets from the third floor from which they believed they could get DNA evidence. I'm looking through their video archives but that might take a while.

 

[Morcova]

How a hunting ground became a polygamous nightmare

THis is an AP story posted on Fox News. It states one of the sheets had a long strand of hair, believed to be female.The reference to stained sheets was from Fox reporter who had talked to a San Angelo law enforcement officer. The officer said they had stained sheets from the third floor from which they believed they could get DNA evidence. I'm looking through their video archives but that might take a while.

I remember when they first moved in. People started talking about Waco all over again.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Nobody here is concerned that children are harmed when taken from their parents and the only home they have known, no matter how bad it is? In places other than Texas, social workers normally do all they can to keep children with their parents, because they know removing the children will be traumatic. They want to be VERY sure the harm being done is both immediate and worse than the trauma they will cause by the removal. Otherwise, they will use other interventions before removal.

 

[TexasSky]

And that attitude about, "let's leave them there until we're sure which is worse," is why the headlines are full of stories about children locked in dog-kennel cages, children beaten to death, children raped so often, with no one doing anything about it, that they ran away and turned to drugs and prostitition because they felt safer on the streets of New York and Los Angelos and Houston than they did in their own home.

It is traumatic to be removed from a parent.
It is far more damaging to a child to learn that the person who is supposed to take care of them and protect them is the person who is abusing them.

It is far more damaging to these children to be pregnant, over and over and over again, from the age of 10 or 11 or 12 or 13, because a man has told them that their only purpose in life is to give him sexual pleasure and children than it is to remove them from that situation.

 

[IisJustMe]

Nobody here is concerned that children are harmed when taken from their parents and the only home they have known, no matter how bad it is?

What part of "it is more dangerous and hurtful to them to be left in an environment where they absolutely will be sexually abused" do you not understand?? Last year in Colorado, 13 children died in the custody of their parents because the state took the same attitude you want Texas to take. Despite evidence that the children were endangered, the supervisors took the attitude that is was better to leave them in the home with the parents. Now there are 24 people facing charges ranging from manslaughter to capitol murder because of bleeding hearts who don't want to see the truth. That's why kids need to be removed from homes when there is perhaps not enough evidence for a criminal conviction. Certainly the third floor of the temple and the young pregnant girls who were taken out of the compound are ample evidence to substantiate the need to remove them and continue the investigation with the children in a safe environment. If you can't understand that, then you are too naive to have a part in the discussion.

 

[Morcova]

Nobody here is concerned that children are harmed when taken from their parents and the only home they have known, no matter how bad it is? In places other than Texas, social workers normally do all they can to keep children with their parents, because they know removing the children will be traumatic. They want to be VERY sure the harm being done is both immediate and worse than the trauma they will cause by the removal. Otherwise, they will use other interventions before removal.

Liz are you pro-incest and pro-pedophilla?

As distasteful as that question may be it has to be asked, you've argued this whole thread that it's better to leave these kids with the very people who are abusing them.