Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

Ben Johnson wrot: Not at all; the "seal" of the Spirit, in verse 13, is affixed to belief. If belief ends, so does the seal. Rom11:21-23 applies: "Do not be arrogant --- if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity, to you kindness if you CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF; and if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted in again..."

My answer is in red: Ben, using a small part Rom 11 to try and show that Christians can lose their salvation is verse abuse.

Lets go to the begining of the chapter to get a proper understanding.


Rom 11:1 So I ask, "God has not rejected his people, has he?" Of course not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he chose long ago. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the story about Elijah, when he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and demolished your altars. I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life."
Rom 11:4 But what was the divine reply to him? "I have reserved for myself 7,000 people who have not knelt to worship Baal."
Rom 11:5 So it is at the present time: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if this is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What, then, does this mean? It means that Israel failed to obtain what it was striving for, but those who were chosen obtained it. However, the rest were hardened.
Rom 11:8 As it is written, "To this day God has given them a spirit of deep sleep. Their eyes do not see, and their ears do not hear."
Rom 11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a punishment for them.
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and keep their backs forever bent."
Rom 11:11 And so I ask, "They have not stumbled so as to fall, have they?" Of course not! On the contrary, because of their stumbling, salvation has come to the gentiles to make the Jews jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their fall means riches for the gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Rom 11:13 I am speaking to you gentiles. Because I am an apostle to the gentiles, I am glorifying my ministry
Rom 11:14 in the hope that I can make my people jealous and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch. If the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you-if you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.
Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are. A partial hardening has come on Israel until the full number of the gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 In this way, all Israel will be saved. As it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

To Ben johnson:

BUMP

Dispy said:

WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS? I'LL REPEAT THEM FOR YOU. Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? That seems to be your grounds of you remark on "verse abuse".

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Dispy said:

Read Romans 8:35-39 again, and then give Paul an answer.

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Ben johnson said:

No THING can separate us from His LOVE --- but does He love those who perish, and desire them to be SAVED? Yes.

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Come on Ben. Read Romans 8:35-39 again. What "THING" in those verses are you talking about? Yes, God/Jesus loves everyone and desires all to be saved. The best part of it is that our salvation is SEALED until the day of our redemption.

Ben johnson said:

And Rom8 must be read entirely; "If WE walk according to the flesh, WE must die"...

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Read the following in its proper contest.

Romans 8:5 For they (UNBELIEVERS)['b] that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they (BELIEVERS0 that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they (UNBELIEVERS) that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye (BELIEVERS) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye (UNBELIEVERS) live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye (BELIEVERS) through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Dispy said:

If what you say is true, then that one he "broke his probation." Eph. 1:12-14 is a lie.

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Ben johnson said:

Not at all; the "seal" of the Spirit, in verse 13, is affixed to belief. If belief ends, so does the seal. Rom11:21-23 applies: [COLORT=blue]"Do not be arrogant --- if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity, to you kindness if you CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF]; and if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted in again..."[/COLOR]

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Verse 13 tell me that "...after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise." Nothing in verses 12-14 says anything about being cut off.

Dispy said:

If what you say is true, then that one he "broke his probation." Eph. 1:12-14 is a lie.

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Ben johnson said:

It seems to me that it is easy to make a "theological stand", and then filter what we read in Scripture in light of that stand. I mean no disrespect; how can Peter's words, or James', not apply? If we are understanding wrong, then that can be demonstrated by showing Peter and James mirror things Paul said.

They do.

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At the time that John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, James and John preached "the gospel of the kingdom." there was a middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile. Jesus, in Matthew 10:5 instructed His disciples "Go not unt the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritians (where the 10 northern tribes of Israel were) enter ye not." All during that time, Isreal was under the Law. Under the Law, continual sacrifices had to be made for sins committed. In the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" an earthly kingdom was promised. Also, when did John the Baptist, Jesus, or the 12 ever preach "the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ," or that they had a heavenly home? When, before Paul, did Peter, James and John ever preach salvation by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ? NEVER!!!

When did Paul ever preach "the gospel of the kingdom?" NEVER! What did Paul preach? He preached "...Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, i. e. "the gospel of the Grace of God." Can you explain to me why Paul was called by God, apart from the 12, and given a different message.

Dispy said:

If the content of the letter said that the adressee had won $1,000,000, I would not have been able to collect it. When Biblical passages are written to Israel, under the Law, It was not written to Gentiles that were not under the Law. Letters that are addressed to the Church, the Body of Christ, (Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law) are for the members of the Body of Christ.

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Ben johnson said:

All this time, I've been wondering where my box of money went. Now I know who to blame...

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See, you didn't understand that letter either. Now you know.

Dispy said:

Now, tell me, to whom are the letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John written? Were they written to those saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," or under the preaching of "the gospel of the Grace of God." i.e. "the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, that was kept secret since the world began?

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Ben johnson said:

If James and Peter say the same things as Paul said, then we cannot separate or discard entire letters.

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YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. Who said that I either seperated or discarded entire letters. All Scripture is profitable for us. We just have to read it in its proper context.

Dispy said:

Being Israel is "the Bride of Christ," I must assume that you are referring to Israel as the "chosen lady." I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. 2 John is not written to me as a member of the Body of Christ.

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Ben johnson said:

I'm referring to the wording in the first of the chapter....

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Dispy said:

What words were you referring to. To whom did James, Cephas (Peter) and John agree to remain with in Gal. 2:9?

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Ben johnson said:

He's speaking of "the teachings of Christ", therefore it's our [dispensation.

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Again, You refurse to answer my question.

Dispy said:

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

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Ben johnson said:

o all it remains for me to do, is convince you that James Peter and John were saying the same things as Paul...

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.

Then prove to me that they did. Did they ever preach the purpose of the Cross prior to Paul? If they did, SHOW ME.

Dispy said:

When did Paul ever preach "the gospel of the kingdom," and when did Peter, James, and John ever preach "the gospel of the Grace of God." i.e. Jesus Christ...

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Ben johnson said:

They all taught the same.

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AGAIN YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION.

Dispy said:

according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

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Ben johnson said:

The "mystery", is "also-Gentiles".

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Please explan you remark. I really don't understand it.

Dispy said:

I was once a sinner that was saved by God's Grace. Like the Corinthians, I a now a saint that still sins.

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Ben johnson said:

Do you WALK in sin? No

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.

Dispy said:

Paul is saying that as saved believers, we do not have a license to sin. Paul stresses that we walk in our "calling," "I BEESCH (BEG) you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your selves a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonalbe service" (Rom. 12:1).

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Ben johnson said:

He clearly says "If we walk in sin, we must die". It's undeniably, a choice.

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Go back and see what I wrote about Romans 8.

Dispy said:

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 1 Cor. 6:12: "All things are lawfell unto me, but all thing are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any"? Also in 10:23 " All things are lawful for me, but all thing are not expedient (proper): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

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Ben johnson said:

What he means, is he's responding to a local belief --- "ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL". So he says "Not really; not everything is beneficial".

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What was the local belief?

Dispy said:

Again, I was once a sinner that was saved by God's Grace. Now I am a saint that still sins.

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Ben johnson said:

...still sins OCCASIONALLY.

If we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Heb10:26

Is Hebrews also a letter that we can ignore? (No offense intended.)

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Hebrews is not a letter which we can ignore. However, it was not addressed to members of the Church, the Body of Christ. It was written to believing Jews that still wanted to practise the works/deed of the Law. It was written to show them that thing are much better under the dispensation of Grace, then the dispensation of the Law.

If you are not going to answer my question, then I'll discontinue our dialogue.

Originally Posted by Ben johnson
No THING can separate us from His LOVE --- but does He love those who perish, and desire them to be SAVED? Yes. Rom 8;35



Ben, that verse abuse again, your adding to scripture.

Who is Paul talking and refering to?

Rom 8:33 Who can bring an accusation against God's chosen people? It is God who justifies them!
Rom 8:34 Who can condemn them? Christ Jesus, who died-and more importantly, who has been raised and is seated at the right hand of God-is the one who is also interceding for us!
Rom 8:35 Who can separate us from Christ's love? Can trouble, distress, persecu

View Poll Results: Do you believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved? No, I don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. Arminian17476.99%Yes, I do believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved. Regenerated Reformed52
23.01%

Voters: 226. You have already voted on this poll

savedbygrace57 said:

Only the elect does God desire to be saved. and guess what ?

jb 13:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

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Do you actually believe that God would be so unjust that He would condemn souls to the eternal lake of fire; for His own pleasure.

That is not the god I serve.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth on Him should not parish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Do you actually believe that God would be so unjust that He would condemn souls to the eternal lake of fire; for His own pleasure.

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Most definitly , without a shadow of doubt..

That is not the god I serve.

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actually it is , because all creatures are serving His will.

Now you of course dont appear to be a worshiper or believer of the True God, but you worship a idol god..

"

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth on Him should not parish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

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Thats the scope of His Love , the world..

Jn 13:

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

He only loved those that are his own in this world..

Dispy said:

Do you actually believe that God would be so unjust that He would condemn souls to the eternal lake of fire; for His own pleasure.

That is not the god I serve.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth on Him should not parish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

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Every human from Adam to the end is guilty before God, God is under no obligation to save anybody, thankfully He By grace sent His son to die for a few. At the end of the world as we know it there will be a large number of elect, too many to count.

By the way to understand John 3:16 in it's contex, the key word in relation to the world is those who believe. (Since a dead man can not raise himself from the dead, only those chosen will come to Him.

Look around and ask yourself, why should He save any of us self centered humans?

Since every human deserves hell, it's amazing grace that He would save any.

yashualover,

By the way to understand John 3:16 in it's contex, the key word in relation to the world is those who believe. (Since a dead man can not raise himself from the dead, only those chosen will come to Him.

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that is why Christ was needed. All men were condemned to death. If we, mankind, had remained in this state, then faith, believing would be moot. That is the whole purpose of Christ coming into history, to assume our fallen natures to raise them to life. A dead man cannot believe and have eternal consequences.

Look around and ask yourself, why should He save any of us self centered humans?

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Because He is sovereign and did not desire His created order to lapse into nothingness due to death and within the power of Satan.
Secondly, because man is His most prized possession. A creature that actually bears His Image. Would you destroy one of your children just for the sake of destroying it?

Since every human deserves hell, it's amazing grace that He would save any.[]/quote] No human deserves hell. We all deserved death which is the condemnation we received through Adam. Christ redeemed us just so we could fulful the purpose of HIS creating us in the first place, that is, to be in union with Him. He desires that of all His creatures come to know him. He desires none perish. If we do not desire to have this union, then hell awaits those who reject their creator.

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Yashualover said:

Ben Johnson wrot: Not at all; the "seal" of the Spirit, in verse 13, is affixed to belief. If belief ends, so does the seal. Rom11:21-23 applies: "Do not be arrogant --- if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity, to you kindness if you CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise YOU WILL BE CUT OFF; and if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted in again..."

My answer is in red: Ben, using a small part Rom 11 to try and show that Christians can lose their salvation is verse abuse.

Lets go to the begining of the chapter to get a proper understanding.

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Hi, "Yashualover". What in the quoted passage conflicts what I said? I see you've underlined verses 5-7:

Rom 11:5 So it is at the present time: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if this is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What, then, does this mean? It means that Israel failed to obtain what it was striving for, but those who were chosen obtained it. However, the rest were hardened.

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If you perceive this means "God sovereignly CHOSE then and their own choices had nothing to do with it", then you still gotta find an answer for 20-23. Why should we be afraid? Will you consider that "Those-who-were-chosen", reflects the chosen in Matt22:2-14? In that parable, those who accepted the invitation, became "the chosen". The king had nothing to do with their acceptance or refusal, did he?

Look also at this:

Rom 11:11 And so I ask, "They have not stumbled so as to fall, have they?" Of course not!

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I would recommend getting a New American Standard --- it's much closer to the Greek. "They did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!" Sure changes the "possibility", doesn't it?

Dispy said:

WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS? I'LL REPEAT THEM FOR YOU. Did Esau ever serve Jacob? Did the elder serve the younger? That seems to be your grounds of you remark on "verse abuse".

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I don't remember the discussion --- I'm sorry; can you link me to a post? What did I say about "verse abuse"?

Come on Ben. Read Romans 8:35-39 again. What "THING" in those verses are you talking about? Yes, God/Jesus loves everyone and desires all to be saved. The best part of it is that our salvation is SEALED until the day of our redemption.

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Un-TO, Dispy --- not un-TIL. The "seal", is our receiving the Spirit --- and it's after belief. May we discuss some of the many verses about deception? It's easy to show "deception", is to "unbelief".

Read the following in its proper contest.

Romans 8:5 For they (UNBELIEVERS) that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they (BELIEVERS) that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they (UNBELIEVERS) that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye (BELIEVERS) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye (UNBELIEVERS) live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye (BELIEVERS) through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

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You're inserting the words "believers/unbelievers" --- I'm reading NASV, and they're not there. "WE are under obligation NOT to the flesh --- for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live."

Look at how Paul speaks of "SET YOUR minds on things above, NOT on things on earth" (Col3:1ff). This is an exact mirror of Rom8:5-7. And it removes Five-Way #3, "Two Groups" argument.

Verse 13 tell me that "...after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise." Nothing in verses 12-14 says anything about being cut off.

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Other passages do; 2Jn1:7-9, for instance.

At the time that John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, James and John preached "the gospel of the kingdom." there was a middle wall of partition between the Jew and Gentile. Jesus, in Matthew 10:5 instructed His disciples "Go not unto the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritians (where the 10 northern tribes of Israel were) enter ye not." All during that time, Isreal was under the Law. Under the Law, continual sacrifices had to be made for sins committed. In the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" an earthly kingdom was promised. Also, when did John the Baptist, Jesus, or the 12 ever preach "the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ," or that they had a heavenly home? When, before Paul, did Peter, James and John ever preach salvation by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ? NEVER!!!

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All of them preached "salvation by grace, through faith"; James' words correctly reflect what Jesus said: "No good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good fruit; therefore you will KNOW them by their FRUIT." Matt7:16-18

When did Paul ever preach "the gospel of the kingdom?" NEVER! What did Paul preach? He preached "...Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, i. e. "the gospel of the Grace of God." Can you explain to me why Paul was called by God, apart from the 12, and given a different message.

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The message isn't different; they all harmonize.

YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. Who said that I either seperated or discarded entire letters. All Scripture is profitable for us. We just have to read it in its proper context.

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You're saying that James and Peter were saying different things than Paul did; and I'm saying they didn't. The same warnings against deceivers are in Paul's letters, and James' letter, and Peters' letters.

Being Israel is "the Bride of Christ," I must assume that you are referring to Israel as the "chosen lady." I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. 2 John is not written to me as a member of the Body of Christ.

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Are you sure of that? "They are not all Israel, who are descendants, but ....the children of the promise are REGARDED as descendants." Rom9:6-9

I am a Gentile; but through the blood of Jesus Christ, I am an adopted Jew.

Then prove to me that they did. Did they ever preach the purpose of the Cross prior to Paul? If they did, SHOW ME.

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James reflects the same ideals as Jesus did, in "fruits". Peter from the first of his letters preaches the Gospel of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. John plainly said "He who has the Son, has eternal life".

When did Paul ever preach "the gospel of the kingdom," and when did Peter, James, and John ever preach "the gospel of the Grace of God." i.e. Jesus Christ...

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Did not Paul speak of good traits that accompany the saved, and bad traits that, in those who HAVE them, "shall not inherit the kingdom of God"? Gal5:19-21. 1Cor6:9-11.

Please explan you remark. I really don't understand it.

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Read Eph3:4-6. And you will understand.

What was the local belief?

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It was a Corinth-thing, "All things are lawful"; that's what he was responding to. In essence, he's saying "not really".

Hebrews is not a letter which we can ignore. However, it was not addressed to members of the Church, the Body of Christ. It was written to believing Jews that still wanted to practise the works/deed of the Law. It was written to show them that thing are much better under the dispensation of Grace, then the dispensation of the Law.

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Hebrews harmonizes perfectly with Paul's writings (no duh, most people believe Paul wrote Hebrews), and with James' and Peter's and Jude's and John's. All of them.

If you are not going to answer my question, then I'll discontinue our dialogue.

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Well, let's not "bail" just yet; that's a device some have employed to avoid discussions.

Hopefully we're understanding each other better now.

Ben johnson said:

I don't remember the discussion --- I'm sorry; can you link me to a post? What did I say about "verse abuse"?

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Check out posts #810, 811, and 819.

Still don't have answers to my questions.

Ben, you say that you are an adopted Jew. Well, according to Romans 11:7-12, Israel has been given temporary slumbering eyes, and are in a "set aside" condition "...until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (vs. 25). So, what benefits do you have as an adopted Jew?

Dispy said:

Check out posts #810, 811, and 819.

Still don't have answers to my questions.

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810, 811 and 819 were posted to "Savedbygrace57". How does that relate to what we were discussing?

Ben, you say that you are an adopted Jew. Well, according to Romans 11:7-12, Israel has been given temporary slumbering eyes, and are in a "set aside" condition "...until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (vs. 25). So, what benefits do you have as an adopted Jew?

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Israel are God's people; the descendants of Abraham are to inherit the "Promise".

I am a Gentile. Yet, through Jesus, His blood bought me; I am therefore, a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

I have joined God's chosen people.

Recognition of this is why Christians have always been sympathetic towards Jews; we hid them and protected them by the thousands, in World War Two. America enjoys friendship with them now; America the "once-Christian-nation", understanding that "he who blesses you, will be blessed; but he who curses you, will be cursed".

Ben johnson said:

810, 811 and 819 were posted to "Savedbygrace57". How does that relate to what we were discussing?

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OOPS, my bad.

Ben johnson said:

Israel are God's people; the descendants of Abraham are to inherit the "Promise".

I am a Gentile. Yet, through Jesus, His blood bought me; I am therefore, a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

I have joined God's chosen people.

Recognition of this is why Christians have always been sympathetic towards Jews; we hid them and protected them by the thousands, in World War Two. America enjoys friendship with them now; America the "once-Christian-nation", understanding that "he who blesses you, will be blessed; but he who curses you, will be cursed".

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From what I posted some time ago:

The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham.Read Romans 4:12 - 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh.

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, as he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH ALONE, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Read Galations in that light.

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seed, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

God made many promises to the physical seed of Abraham, such as land, that his descendants would become a great nation, etc. Paul emphasizes the fact that the word "seed" is in the singular, and it is in reference to Christ. Christ is the pinnacle of the promises made to Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What promise do we have through Abraham's seed Jesus? SALVATION.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by FAITH by demonstrating that faith by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, and the formation of "the Body of Christ", There were different instructions addressed to Israel then to the Gentiles. If a Gentile wanted to serve the God of Israel, then the Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst?

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel. You may if you wish.

Dispy said:

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel. You may if you wish.

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No one has endorsed a "saved-by-works" paradigm. Israel "pursued a law of righteousness, but did not arrive at it --- because they pursued it by WORKS and not by FAITH. They stumbled over the very stumbling stone (Jesus)." Rom9:31-32

Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Read Galatians in that light.

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Paul's letter to Galatia is the best example of "OSNAS". No argument can win that "they were never REALLY saved"; they were begun in the Spirit, running well and obeying the truth, KNOWN by God. 3:3, 5:7, 4:9

...but by "returning to a yoke of slavery", choosing LAW over GRACE, they were "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". 5:1, 4:9, 5:4

No argument can win that "they did not become unsaved", or that "this is only a HYPOTHETICAL, by speaking this way it is effective-means to REMAIN saved.

Paul says "You who ARE..." It's written as a fact, not a possibility.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

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James does not discount "saved by grace, through faith (and not works)". Rather, he is affirming what Jesus said: "No good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good fruit (works); therefore you will KNOW them by their FRUIT." Matt7:16-18

Dispy said:

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel. You may if you wish.

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Ben johnson said:

No one has endorsed a "saved-by-works" paradigm. Israel "pursued a law of righteousness, but did not arrive at it --- because they pursued it by WORKS and not by FAITH. They stumbled over the very stumbling stone (Jesus)." Rom9:31-32

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Could those of Israel have been saved by NOT doing the deeds/works of the Law? If not, What were they to put their FAITH in? Are believers today, members of the Church, the Body of Christ, required to do the deeds/works of the Law, even if done in FAITH.

PLEASE ANSWER my question in detail. Don't just make a remark about them; as is your normal mode of operation.

Dispy said:

Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Read Galatians in that light.

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Ben johnson said:

Paul's letter to Galatia is the best example of "OSNAS". No argument can win that "they were never REALLY saved"; they were begun in the Spirit, running well and obeying the truth, KNOWN by God. 3:3, 5:7, 4:9

...but by "returning to a yoke of slavery", choosing LAW over GRACE, they were "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". 5:1, 4:9, 5:4

No argument can win that "they did not become unsaved", or that "this is only a HYPOTHETICAL, by speaking this way it is effective-means to REMAIN saved.

Paul says "You who ARE..." It's written as a fact, not a possibility.

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Read Gal. 3:1-5 in context. Paul is writeing to believers. Nowhere does it indicate that they lost their salvation. If they did, point it out to me.

Where in 5:7 say that they lost their salvation? Also in 5:4 does it say that?

All those that Paul is writeing to in Galations, are they unsaved?

Even though those Galatians were saved on the grounds by FAITH, they were still living as thought they were under the Law. This did not nulify their saivation.

Dispy said:

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

Click to expand...

Ben johnson said:

James does not discount "saved by grace, through faith (and not works)". Rather, he is affirming what Jesus said: "No good tree produces bad fruit (works), no bad tree produces good fruit (works); therefore you will KNOW them by their FRUIT." Matt7:16-18

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What part of "Was not Abraham our fther justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" (James 2:21 don't you understand? Would Abraham been justified by NOT offering up Isaac? You no doubt will not answer those questions either. You'll just make a comment as usual.

Ben johnson said:

...but by "returning to a yoke of slavery", choosing LAW over GRACE, they were "severed from Christ and fallen from grace". 5:1, 4:9, 5:4

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I don't see where fallen from grace = loss of salvation. Can you please explain?

savedbygrace57 said:

Only the elect does God desire to be saved. and guess what ?

jb 13:

13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

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What do you do with John 3:15,16; 11:25; Actss 10:43; 1 John 5:1?

Dispy said:

Could those of Israel have been saved by NOT doing the deeds/works of the Law? If not, What were they to put their FAITH in? Are believers today, members of the Church, the Body of Christ, required to do the deeds/works of the Law, even if done in FAITH.

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They stumbled over the very stumbling-stone --- that is Jesus. By refusing to receive Jesus-the-Messiah, they forsook the New Covenant of Grace, and clung to "Law" (works). Today, we are not apart from "Law" --- but in the Old Covenant, they obeyed the Law to be saved; we practice righteousness because we ARE saved. Jesus said, "I came not to ABOLISH the Law, but to FULFILL it."

Read Gal. 3:1-5 in context. Paul is writing to believers. Nowhere does it indicate that they lost their salvation. If they did, point it out to me.

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In 4:9, they were "known by God; but turned BACK to weak/worthless things" (turned away from God). In 5:7 they were running well, but were HINDERED from obeying the truth --- they no longer obeyed the truth. 5:4 says "apo-katargeo-SEVERED-from-Christ" (become-no-effect), and ekpipto-charis-FALLEN-from-grace.

Do you really assert that "turned away from God", "not obeying the truth", forsaking Jesus' Gospel of grace in lieu of LAW/WORKS salvation, "severed-from-Christ" and "FALLEN-FROM-GRACE", is still SAVED? If so, what would it have to say for you to accept "no longer saved"?

Even though those Galatians were saved on the grounds by FAITH, they were still living as thought they were under the Law. This did not nulify their salvation.

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Please see my previous statement; and please accept that Paul is conveying movement. "WERE running well", and "WERE obeying the truth", and "WERE begun in the Spirit", and "WERE known by God" --- conveys true salvation. But now they are turning BACK to Law and forsaking Christ.

What part of "Was not Abraham our fther justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" (James 2:21 don't you understand? Would Abraham been justified by NOT offering up Isaac? You no doubt will not answer those questions either. You'll just make a comment as usual.

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Why the disrespect, Dispy? James reflects Paul, like in Philip2:12-13: "Therefore WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose."

We do good works, not to be saved, but because we are. Through faith, He works in and through us.

Make sense?

Mattlock73 said:

I don't see where fallen from grace = loss of salvation. Can you please explain?

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Hi, "Mattlock". This post is also written to you.