Poll on Election

[theseed]

Calvinists believe that man has a free will

Not in regards to salvation

 

[tigersnare]

Without the grace of God men will not choose to come.

Effectual Calling/Irresistable grace.....you just don't know you're saying it or believe I bet.

But God restrains no man from coming

I believe the argument is, no man would "want" to come unless he was called in the first place.

 

[theseed]

But God restrains no man from coming

According to the Calvinist view, no man would ever come to God has God draws him, so by default, if God does not draw him, then God makes it so he can't come and this is God's choice and election

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

According to the Calvinist view, no man would ever come to God has God draws him, so by default, if God does not draw him, then God makes it so he can't come and this is God's choice and election

Seed, do you need to put an "except" there between the first "God" and "has"?

I think I agree with you. To me Calvinism is an attempt to put God's will according to some unverifiable mathematical formula and thus predict it and as such it fails. Calvin was a brilliant man, though, but so was Karl Marx. Both were right about some things but wrong about most IMO. Calvin's "elect" is IMO right up there with Marx's theories of surplus value.

 

[tigersnare]

Are denying the election and calling in general or just Calvin's view?

 

[rebaa]

Eph 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
KJV

 

[tigersnare]

And what are you saying here?

I've seen people use those verses to suport election and predestination, then I've seen others use it to dimiss it becuase they claim the blessing in Christ can be for everyone, and that God has chosen us all.

 

[Lotar]

God does predestine the elect, but at the same time He wishes all to be saved, and those who are not, are lost because of the hardness of their own hearts.

 

[tigersnare]

God does predestine the elect, but at the same time He wishes all to be saved, and those who are not, are lost because of the hardness of their own hearts.

Agreed...


It's funny how some think (I used to one of them) that we all deserve a "shot" at salvation. My Pastor pointed out to me just how wicked we became after the fall, we have "murderous intent", and we hate God, and we hate his discipline.....I'm one evil creature, Praise God for his plan, mercy, and grace!!!

 

[rebaa]

And what are you saying here?

I've seen people use those verses to suport election and predestination, then I've seen others use it to dimiss it becuase they claim the blessing in Christ can be for everyone, and that God has chosen us all.

You are reading the verses what do they say to you?

 

[Lotar]

Agreed...


It's funny how some think (I used to one of them) that we all deserve a "shot" at salvation. My Pastor pointed out to me just how wicked we became after the fall, we have "murderous intent", and we hate God, and we hate his discipline.....I'm one evil creature, Praise God for his plan, mercy, and grace!!!

As Luther said, it's not theology for the faint of heart. When we study election, we come to realize how evil we truly are and how mercyful God truly is. I don't deserve God's grace, and God wouldn't be any less righteous if He through me into the depths of hell. What does the potter owe the clay?

Too bad I don't have an option in the poll.

 

[Greeter]

What option did you want to see in the poll?

 

[rnmomof7]

According to the Calvinist view, no man would ever come to God has God draws him, so by default, if God does not draw him, then God makes it so he can't come and this is God's choice and election

God does not stop anyone from coming..but man is restrained by his own will.

Luther called it the bondage of the will.

Man always acts in accordance to his preferences. Unregenerate man will never choose to come. But it is not God that caused that , it was Adam .


So God does not remove anything for the reprobate man . When God showers a man with His efficacious grace , the mans will is changed, he hears the gospel and he desires to respond . He acts according to his preferences .He hears the gospel and then wants to repent and believe .

You assume that all men deserve to have equal opportunity to be saved.
The only thing we all deserve is hell. The fact that he saves any is an undeserved blessing .

God told you that he will have mercy on whom He will have mercy , He does not owe us anything , we deserve nothing .

It is not all about you or me. It is about His good pleasure not ours



Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Grace is UNMERITED FAVOR

 

[rnmomof7]

As Luther said, it's not theology for the faint of heart. When we study election, we come to realize how evil we truly are and how mercyful God truly is. I don't deserve God's grace, and God wouldn't be any less righteous if He through me into the depths of hell. What does the potter owe the clay?

Too bad I don't have an option in the poll.

People get angry and think that it takes a lot of pride to believe this..that some how you see yourself as "special".

In fact it is a very humbling doctrine , because you realize that there is nothing you can do to deserve to do to be saved.

It is nothing about you..it is all about Gods good pleasure.

 

[Greeter]

People get angry and think that it takes a lot of pride to believe this..that some how you see yourself as "special".

In fact it is a very humbling doctrine , because you realize that there is nothing you can do to deserve to do to be saved.

It is nothing about you..it is all about Gods good pleasure.

I think that is the point many people miss in the concept of election. Many people make the mistake of looking at it as if people are claiming to be something more when it actually shows how none of us are worthy of the gift.

 

[G4m]

It's clear that even our belief and faith are predetermined:


Acts 13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But we all will be given mercy in the end:

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I see our outward actions and choices are the confirmation of what God has made us to be.

 

[Lotar]

What option did you want to see in the poll?

What I posted in #48

 

[Greeter]

What I posted in #48

Does that take you outside the realm of Calvinism? Or does it simply make you less then a five point Calvinist?

 

[rnmomof7]

Eph 1:3-7

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Remember that the greek was written with on punctuation . So the sentences and paragraphs were divided by the translators. Many think in fact the words IN LOVE should actually begin the next sentence
(In love)
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.(Christ)

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
KJV

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Eph 2:5**
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

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Eph 2:6**
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

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Eph 2:7**
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

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Eph 2:8**
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

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Eph 2:9**
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Lotar]

Does that take you outside the realm of Calvinism? Or does it simply make you less then a five point Calvinist?

It takes me out of the realm of Calvinism and into the realm of Lutheranism.