Poll: Is Hell real?

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Jase
There is no such thing as Hell in the Old Testament. Jews don't believe in it.

The Old Testament is speaking about hell.
Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire has been kindled in My anger, and it burns to the lowest Sheol, and consumes the earth and its produce; and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Amen! speak it speak it speak it, brother in Christ and son of the Most High God!

 

[Jase]

The apocrypha and gnostic books that you listed are not scripture, hence, they are not God breathed. The bible makes the claim in 2 Tim. 3.

They are not scripture because the Catholic Church didn't like them. Not because God said they weren't. And Timothy refers to all-scripture that existed prior to the NT, because the Bible didn't exist yet. You can't claim Timothy is claiming all-scripture found only in the Protestant Bible is God-breathed. There was no Bible when 2 Tim was written.

God. It is His special revelation not a denomination's word.

Nope. Humans wrote the Bible, the Catholic Church council decided what went in to it, and varying denominations have agreed or disagreed based on their own beliefs. God did not create Protestantism, nor did he decide that their Bible should be different than the Catholic, Hebrew, or Eastern Orthodox Bibles.

God had absolutely no involvement in the canonization of the Bible.

 

[Jase]

The Old Testament is speaking about hell.
Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire has been kindled in My anger, and it burns to the lowest Sheol, and consumes the earth and its produce; and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Sheol is the grave where the dead wander with no consciousness or feeling. There is no Hell in Judaism.

 

[Jase]

Amen! speak it speak it speak it, brother in Christ and son of the Most High God!

Yes, do please continue to speak on that which you do not understand.

 

[Hentenza]

They are not scripture because the Catholic Church didn't like them. Not because God said they weren't. And Timothy refers to all-scripture that existed prior to the NT, because the Bible didn't exist yet. You can't claim Timothy is claiming all-scripture found only in the Protestant Bible is God-breathed. There was no Bible when 2 Tim was written.

I disagree with you. Paul wrote what he and others knew to become scripture. For example Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). However, this is off topic to this thread.

Humans wrote the Bible

Sure. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

, the Catholic Church council decided what went in to it,

Nope. God did. It is true that God used then for His will, however, nost of the NT books had been considered scripture long before the 4th century.

and varying denominations have agreed or disagreed based on their own beliefs.

Not a reflection on God's word but an example of our fallibility.

God did not create Protestantism, nor did he decide that their Bible should be different than the Catholic, Hebrew, or Eastern Orthodox Bibles.

Right. Jesus established an universal church composed of all believers. The bible, in the autographs, is the full special revelation of God for believers.

God had absolutely no involvement in the canonization of the Bible.

Yes He did. Without God there is not bible.


BTW- I see that you did not address my post #60.

 

[Hentenza]

Sheol is the grave where the dead wander with no consciousness or feeling. There is no Hell in Judaism.

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
24 “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Just because Judaism ignores it does not mean that it isn't there. We are not Jews, we are Christians. Judaism is in error.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Sheol is the grave where the dead wander with no consciousness or feeling. There is no Hell in Judaism.

Again you are wrong.
Luke 16:20-31 explains why.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"


Doesn't sound like a place were people stop to exist to me.
Hell was very real to the rich man.

 

[Jase]

Sure. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Nope. God did. It is true that God used then for His will, however, nost of the NT books had been considered scripture long before the 4th century.

Good luck proving any of this. This is purely speculation based on your personal beliefs. There is not a single shred of evidence that God had any involvement in the writing of the Bible.

Not a reflection on God's word but an example of our fallibility.

Funny that a perfect being can't inspire the Biblical writers to author it well enough so there is no disagreement.

Right. Jesus established an universal church composed of all believers. The bible, in the autographs, is the full special revelation of God for believers.

The Bible is an account of human perceived interaction with a divine being. No evidence God revealed it.

Yes He did. Without God there is not bible.

Again,where is your proof? By your logic, Allah is real because without him there would be no Quran.

 

[Jase]

Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
24 “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Just because Judaism ignores it does not mean that it isn't there. We are not Jews, we are Christians. Judaism is in error.

That quote is a reference to Gehenna. Just because the fire is metaphorically eternal, doesn't mean we suffer eternally.

And I beg your pardon, but you may not be a Jew, but I am.

 

[rstrats]

VCViking,
　
re: "Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever..."

This only says that smoke goes up forever.
　

re: "...and they have no rest day and night..."

It doesn’t say for how long.
　

re: "10-And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

This only says that the devil will be tormented for ever.
　

re: "14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Death, not life.
　

I just don’t understand why folks want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

 

[rstrats]

VCViking,

re: "No babies in hell. Read what king David said about his baby that dies as an infant."

I’m not aware of any scripture that says that David’s baby was not in hell. What do you have in mind?

 

[rstrats]

JesusFreak78,

re: "God is a holy God that demands us to be holy and if we're not holy He can't accept us into His kingdom."
　
That’s fine, but why does He have to give immortality to the unholy after they die and send them to an eternity of torment? Since a person is not inherently immortal, why can’t He simply wipe the person out of existence?

 

[VCViking]

As Paul Washer once said to a fellow preacher during a conference, "I think some of these people just need to be saved."

 

[VCViking]

VCViking,

re: "No babies in hell. Read what king David said about his baby that dies as an infant."

I’m not aware of any scripture that says that David’s baby was not in hell. What do you have in mind?

Seek and find it. It's there.

 

[VCViking]

Bible isn't clear on much.

Then why do you believe in any of it? Why do you even believe in God or Jesus? How do you know the parts of the bible that you do believe are not false?

Do you believe?

 

[VCViking]

Babies will be tortured for all eternity too. Sorry, read your Bible - it's quite clear.

Where? Quote it.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Jase
Bible isn't clear on much.

Then why do you believe in any of it? Why do you even believe in God or Jesus? How do you know the parts of the bible that you do believe are not false?

Do you believe?

Indeed.

 

[nChrist]

We have a couple of trolls working in the thread, and the ignore list works wonders. Everything makes sense now.

Those with legitimate questions have been helped.

 

[VCViking]

No he wasn't. As to your quotes, Revelation is a highly suspect book. For one, there is an older Jewish version of Revelation that makes far more sense. Revelation was John's metaphoric description of the Roman Empire during Christian and Jewish persecution. The 4 horseman refer to 4 sectors of the Roman Empire. The number of the beast (666 under common belief, but in fact is 616 in the dead sea scrolls) in Hebrew numerology spells Nero - as in the Emperor persecuted and executed the new Christians.

The Catholic Church took over 400 years to ultimately decide to canonize Revelation, because they didn't think it was authentic. Revelation does not belong in the Bible.

The smoke persists forever. Not their conscious torture.


The devil is the target here, not humanity.



In other words, death and hell were destroyed and purified by Fire. Hell is not eternal.

The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for eternal destruction - as in ceasing to exist.

Wrong again. It's all about context and apparently comprehension.

 

[VCViking]

If one is cast into everlasting fire, one would think everlasting fire would never end and being fire, it probably hurts alot. It's like being burned at the stake but the fire never dies and neither does the person. They just continue to burn forever. Ouch!


Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

He's talking about people here.