Poll for belief in the trinity as a requirement for membership

[GuardianShua]

"Persons" is misleading because of most people's interpretation of it. I have debated Jehovahs Witnesses that get stuck on this point and start thinking there are 3 "gods." Once I assure them that I don't believe in the "persons" aspect they tend to be a little more open to listen.
Essences is fine because essence can include spirit being. Persons tends to be viewed as a human and/or physical entitiy even if some, like you do claim it means only a distinct individual.

God is a person, not a concept. The fact that other people are not taken into conciederation by a dictionary, does not prevent them from being living beings. Trinitarism go's back to the time of Jonah in Nineveh. See also Nahum 3:4. all because of the wanton lust of a harlot,
alluring, the mistress of sorceries,
who enslaved nations by her prostitution
and peoples by her witchcraft.

Babylon and Nineveh are also used parabolically to refer to another Beast (Nation,) the little horn. In the last days a huge stone from space will strike Babylon in the FOOT. That is when the cities of the nations will fall flat.

 

[Cris413]

K, let's reason this out -- If something isn't "personable" (with a mind, will or emotions), it's inanimate, right?
or a "thing". Plants & trees are living but they have no soul or brain...
God isn't like a plant or tree - this is why He's referred to a "person", becuz we are made in HIS image - He has the divine attributes - He is Spirit; He thinks, reasons, is wisdom, etc.

We ascribe personage to Him becuz He isn't inanimate. That's just how WE relate to viewing Him while keeping from becomming impersonal as if He's an object rather than a living Being.

Hope that helps - that's at least how I view it.

I wonder how many...who have a problem with "persons"

...call God "Father"

again...awesome personal relationship...

 

[Nadiine]

I wonder how many...who have a problem with "persons"

...call God "Father"

again...awesome personal relationship...

I often use 'person' on purpose becuz it helps people relate better. And I agree He is personable; God does all He can to relate to us in ways we can understand Him - while He remains so complex and majestic.
It really is amazing.

I tend to think that the majority of the people who get "hung up" on details like this are people who focus on debate and analyzing things too deeply. I could be wrong.

 

[Svt4Him]

What other bibles is that verse in? Show me.

Will do:


King James Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Tyndale New Testament
saying: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. That thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the congregations which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thiatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicia.


Webster's Bible Translation
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.


Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

 

[Svt4Him]

Poll closes Oct 15th

It's the 16th now.

 

[heavensprings]

Will do:


King James Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Tyndale New Testament
saying: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. That thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the congregations which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thiatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicia.


Webster's Bible Translation
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.


Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

It's not in these translations ~

(ALT) saying, "What you see, write in a scroll, and send [it] to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

(ASV) saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

(NASB) saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


It's also not in the Greek in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, and not in the Concordant New Testament which is a literal translation straight from the Greek ~

Rev 1:11 saying, "What you are observing write into a scroll and send it to the seven ecclesias: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


So, which is the right translation?

 

[zeke37]

I wonder how many...who have a problem with "persons"

...call God "Father"

again...awesome personal relationship...

I do, I do....the Father is much more than a person....

 

[GuardianShua]

Will do:


King James Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Tyndale New Testament
saying: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. That thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the congregations which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thiatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicia.


Webster's Bible Translation
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.


Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

Perhaps I should have said any modern bible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale's_Bible

 

[GuardianShua]

It's not in these translations ~

(ALT) saying, "What you see, write in a scroll, and send [it] to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

(ASV) saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

(NASB) saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


It's also not in the Greek in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, and not in the Concordant New Testament which is a literal translation straight from the Greek ~

Rev 1:11 saying, "What you are observing write into a scroll and send it to the seven ecclesias: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


So, which is the right translation?

Good work.

 

[GuardianShua]

Will do:


King James Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Tyndale New Testament
saying: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. That thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the congregations which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thiatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicia.


Webster's Bible Translation
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.


Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

In regards to the history of that verse, there is a vast difference. I could not find the historical reason for that difference. All of the scholars are quite about it. From the Catholic bible. 1:11 Saying: "What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

 

[HypnoToad]

The NET Bible excludes it. If you read their Bible (it's an online Bible), they have extensive notes on most of the text, particularly to variant readings. They omit this, and don't even include a note on it; leading me to believe that most scholarship points to it not being genuine. The Trinity, however, stands just fine without that verse anyway.

 

[GuardianShua]

The NET Bible excludes it. If you read their Bible (it's an online Bible), they have extensive notes on most of the text, particularly to variant readings. They omit this, and don't even include a note on it; leading me to believe that most scholarship points to it not being genuine. The Trinity, however, stands just fine without that verse anyway.

Could you rephrase what your saying. This part: They omit this, and don't even include a note on it; leading me to believe that most scholarship points to it not being genuine.

 

[GuardianShua]

It should be noted that the phrases "Alpha and Omega," "the first and the last," and/or "the beginning and the end" are found in the original texts of Rev. 1:8, 1:17, 2:8, 21:6, and 22:13. (These phrases are allusions to the wording in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.) Of these five verses Rev. 22:13 is closest to the KJV's wording in the beginning of Rev. 1:11, but even in Rev. 22:13 the KJV needs some correction. The errors in both Rev. 1:11 and Rev 22:13 are due to the inaccuracy of the so-called Textus Receptus, the Greek text upon which the KJV's New Testament was based.

(According to Bruce Metzger (in The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, Second Edition, Oxford University Press, 1968), the Textus Receptus was hastily and haphazardly prepared and was based mostly upon unreliable 12th century manuscripts. It was the work of a Dutchman by the name of Desiderius Erasmus and was first published in 1516. Though what became known as the Textus Receptus was inferior in accuracy to the very first complete Greek New Testament, the so-called Complutensian New Testament that was published only two years earlier in 1514, Erasmus' text was marketed much more effectively and was used as the basis for all the principal Protestant translations in the languages of Europe until 1881, when the English Revised Version [RV] was first published. For a complete explanation of the basis for the errors in the King James Version and its impact on biblical studies, browse http://www.bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm.)

Regarding Rev 22:13, the Textus Receptus' rendering of that verse had some of the Greek wording and word order incorrect; thus, in that verse the KJV translation does not exactly represent the original text. Based upon the much more reliable editions of the Greek New Testament that are available today, the New Revised Standard Version [NRSV] does accurately (and quite literally) represent the correct wording and word order of the original Greek text of Rev. 22:13, which reads,

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

 

[Svt4Him]

It's not in these translations ~

(ALT) saying, "What you see, write in a scroll, and send [it] to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

(ASV) saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

(NASB) saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


It's also not in the Greek in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, and not in the Concordant New Testament which is a literal translation straight from the Greek ~

Rev 1:11 saying, "What you are observing write into a scroll and send it to the seven ecclesias: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."


So, which is the right translation?

That's why I didn't post those.

Which is right? Use them all and find out why they don't agree.

 

[Svt4Him]

Perhaps I should have said any modern bible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale's_Bible

That's a fallacy. Age doesn't make something true or not true.

Argumentum ad novitatem

This is the opposite of the Argumentum ad Antiquitatem; it's the fallacy of asserting that something is better or more correct simply because it is new, or newer than something else.

 

[HypnoToad]

Could you rephrase what your saying. This part: They omit this, and don't even include a note on it; leading me to believe that most scholarship points to it not being genuine.

For most Scriptures that have variant readings, such as the Johannine Comma for example, the NET typically includes notes on why they select one reading over another. It's rare to have a Scripture with a variant reading that they don't include notes on. As I said, their notes are extremely extensive. This is even more surprising when the variant is as significantly different, as in the case of Rev.1:11.

For Rev.1:11, they exclude the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last", just like translations such as the NASB and NIV. And when you look at their notes, they don't even mention anything about its omission, nothing about the variant reading as found in the KJV and similar translations. That they don't even mention it would seem to indicate that the evidence is decidedly against it being genuine, so much so that they don't even deem it worth mentioning.

Now, they may certainly have had something else in mind, what I give here is just how it looks to me.

 

[GuardianShua]

For most Scriptures that have variant readings, such as the Johannine Comma for example, the NET typically includes notes on why they select one reading over another. It's rare to have a Scripture with a variant reading that they don't include notes on. As I said, their notes are extremely extensive. This is even more surprising when the variant is as significantly different, as in the case of Rev.1:11.

For Rev.1:11, they exclude the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last", just like translations such as the NASB and NIV. And when you look at their notes, they don't even mention anything about its omission, nothing about the variant reading as found in the KJV and similar translations. That they don't even mention it would seem to indicate that the evidence is decidedly against it being genuine, so much so that they don't even deem it worth mentioning.

Now, they may certainly have had something else in mind, what I give here is just how it looks to me.

Very interesting. You would think that something that important would be mentioned by the scholars.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

That's a fallacy. Age doesn't make something true or not true.

Argumentum ad novitatem

This is the opposite of the Argumentum ad Antiquitatem; it's the fallacy of asserting that something is better or more correct simply because it is new, or newer than something else.

Greetings in the name of Jesus;

dear Sir:

If I may, I would like take issue with this point of age not being relevant unto truth.

There is scriptures which speaks about " God shall preserve his word". and Also that Gods words are pure, and eternal. These are time and age related terms.

Now I submit; that the true interpretation of God, preserving his word, is that the Older a translation bible, being continually used in power by the faithful, the greater its chances of being Gods true words; meaning, God preserved it in use and power, showing us his true word..

Now KJV is the oldest continually used in power by the faithful, in English. I believe this is meaningful, and fulfillment of Gods words, to preserve his word.

I pray my words do not offend any.

God bless Christians in forum, and all those who use it.

 

[Jim47]

Closing thread as requested