SummerMadness

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Policing in America Is Broken. How Do We Fix It?
On Memorial Day, the police in Minneapolis killed George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man. Three officers stood by or assisted as a fourth, Derek Chauvin, pressed his knee into Floyd’s neck for more than eight minutes. Floyd said he could not breathe and then became unresponsive. His death has touched off the largest and most sustained round of protests the country has seen since the 1960s, as well as demonstrations around the world. The killing has also prompted renewed calls to address brutality, racial disparities and impunity in American policing — and beyond that, to change the conditions that burden black and Latino communities.

The search for transformation has a long and halting history. In 1967, the Kerner Commission, appointed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the causes of uprisings and rioting that year, recommended ways to improve the relationship between the police and black communities, but in the end it entrenched law enforcement as a means of social control. “Neighborhood police stations were installed inside public-housing projects in the very spaces vacated by community-action programs,” writes the Yale historian Elizabeth Hinton, author of “From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime.” In 1992, after the acquittals of three Los Angeles police officers who savagely beat Rodney King on camera, unrest erupted in the city. The police were ill prepared, and more than 50 people died. In 1994, Congress gave the Justice Department the authority to investigate a pattern or practice of policing that violated civil rights protections.

Since 2013, the Black Lives Matter movement has made police violence a pressing national and local issue and helped lead to the election of officials — including the district attorneys in several major metropolitan areas — who have tried to make the police more accountable for misconduct and sought to decrease incarceration. The killing of George Floyd in police custody shows how far the country has to go; the resulting protests have pushed the Minneapolis City Council to take the previously unthinkable step of pledging to dismantle its Police Department. But what does that mean, and what should other cities do? We brought together five experts and organizers to talk about how to change policing in America in the context of broader concerns about systemic racism and inequality.
 
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Arc F1

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Union protection is one problem. The other is that society has become more and more lawless. How can the people demand better while behaving worse? We should hold law enforcement to a higher standard but we the people should also hold ourselves accountable. We should push for equal enforcement. Right now I'm seeing a call to actually let people off the hook because they are upset. Again equal enforcement. Not exuces as to why people act badly.
 
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pitabread

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The other is that society has become more and more lawless.

Has it? Just looking at crime rates in the U.S. for example, there has been a general decline in the last few decades.

Interestingly though is the public perception is that crime has increased.

5 facts about crime in the U.S.
 
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Albion

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Has it? Just looking at crime rates in the U.S. for example, there has been a general decline in the last few decades.

I understood the choice of the word "lawless" to have been deliberate and for a good reason.

I have no doubt that certain "crimes" (to use your word instead) have decreased, but not rioting, wholesale destruction of businesses, attacks upon police, etc.
 
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pitabread

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I understood the choice of the word "lawless" to have been deliberate and for a good reason.

I have no doubt that certain "crimes" (to use your word instead) have decreased, but not rioting, wholesale destruction of businesses, attacks upon police, etc.

Do you have data to support this?
 
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pitabread

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That wasn't the suggestion. :sigh:

I know, I went back and edited my post.

At any rate, if people want to claim things are getting worse, people should back up those claims with evidence. Because the actual data suggests otherwise.
 
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Arc F1

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Has it? Just looking at crime rates in the U.S. for example, there has been a general decline in the last few decades.

Interestingly though is the public perception is that crime has increased.

5 facts about crime in the U.S.
Wasn't it just last weekend that Chicago had the second highest murder rate in history? Theft has all but been made legal in California. Etc. Etc. Statistics are always an indication of what is going on. They just reflect the information that is being put in.
 
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Albion

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I think America is done for, I am 22 still young I have been considering moving to somewhere where there is a better quality of life.
I expect that to be a growing trend, but...

what other places are good candidates?
 
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pitabread

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Wasn't it just last weekend that Chicago had the second highest murder rate in history? Theft has all but been made legal in California. Etc. Etc. Statistics are always an indication of what is going on. They just reflect the information that is being put in.

Keep in mind, a single point of data (e.g. one-day of murders) is not necessarily indicative of a trend. If you want to really understand whether things are getting better or worse, one needs to look at the aggregated data over time on the subject.

And all data points to things being better off now than at most times in the past.
 
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SummerMadness

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Wasn't it just last weekend that Chicago had the second highest murder rate in history? Theft has all but been made legal in California. Etc. Etc. Statistics are always an indication of what is going on. They just reflect the information that is being put in.
Why are so many people fixated on Chicago when it's not the most violent or dangerous city in the country.

Perhaps people should take a look at the Investigation of the Chicago Police Department to understand why their police department has problems.
  • Our finding that CPD engages in a pattern or practice of force in violation of the Constitution is based on a comprehensive investigation of CPD’s force practices and a close analysis of hundreds of individual force incidents.
  • Our review further determined that CPD and IPRA do not adequately respond to incidents in which officers used unreasonable or unnecessary force—including force that resulted in a person’s death and the officer’s stated justification was at odds with the physical evidence.
  • The City does not investigate the majority of cases it is required by law to investigate. Most of those cases are uninvestigated because they lack a supporting affidavit from the complaining party, but the City also fails to investigate anonymous and older misconduct complaints as well as those alleging lower level force and non-racial verbal abuse.
  • Those cases that are investigated suffer from serious investigative flaws that obstruct objective fact finding. Civilian and officer witnesses, and even the accused officers, are frequently not interviewed during an investigation. The potential for inappropriate coordination of testimony, risk of collusion, and witness coaching during interviews is built into the system, occurs routinely, and is not considered by investigators in evaluating the case.
And these are just some of the findings.
 
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timothyu

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but not rioting, wholesale destruction of businesses, attacks upon police, etc.
Have you noticed how orchestrated they have become compared to the random race riots of the 60's. These seem to be well organized due to their similarity and the recent band of anarchists that looted in NY one night only to step off of buses in Maine the next seem to verify this. The similarity around the world, the same methods, fireworks and palates of bricks and the timing in various countries must take a lot of funding to organize that doesn't come from the public sector. There is always motive when authority uses these techniques and mercenaries to further their agendas. Welcome to the fourth industrial revolution, the Technocratic Age.

So far in recent months we have been tested in our ability to remain socially distanced, isolated, our adaptation to cyber shopping, schooling, dating, medical care etc. Phase two, disrupt the social order and remove the analog method of policing in favour of the digital method of surveillance and re-programming attitudes.
 
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DavidPT

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I think America is done for, I am 22 still young I have been considering moving to somewhere where there is a better quality of life.


America is clearly not going to recover and ever go back to a time like it was just a few months ago. Eventually America is no longer going to be the land of the free. If defunding the police eventually works, or if doing away with them altogether eventually becomes a reality, what is that logically going to lead to? Would it not eventually lead to martial law in this country? Which is worse for the citizens in this country? Being policed by the police? Or being policed by the military?
 
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Arc F1

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Why are so many people fixated on Chicago when it's not the most violent or dangerous city in the country.

Perhaps people should take a look at the Investigation of the Chicago Police Department to understand why their police department has problems.
  • Our finding that CPD engages in a pattern or practice of force in violation of the Constitution is based on a comprehensive investigation of CPD’s force practices and a close analysis of hundreds of individual force incidents.
  • Our review further determined that CPD and IPRA do not adequately respond to incidents in which officers used unreasonable or unnecessary force—including force that resulted in a person’s death and the officer’s stated justification was at odds with the physical evidence.
  • The City does not investigate the majority of cases it is required by law to investigate. Most of those cases are uninvestigated because they lack a supporting affidavit from the complaining party, but the City also fails to investigate anonymous and older misconduct complaints as well as those alleging lower level force and non-racial verbal abuse.
  • Those cases that are investigated suffer from serious investigative flaws that obstruct objective fact finding. Civilian and officer witnesses, and even the accused officers, are frequently not interviewed during an investigation. The potential for inappropriate coordination of testimony, risk of collusion, and witness coaching during interviews is built into the system, occurs routinely, and is not considered by investigators in evaluating the case.
And these are just some of the findings.

I just used it because it was on the news recently. Media is biased. It's no longer about news its about taking sides.
 
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Albion

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Do you have data to support this?
I'm having a little difficulty finding official compilations of the statistics for seizures of police stations by rioters in 2010 vs 2019, or takeovers by revolutionaries and the secession from the USA of whole sections of the downtowns of major American cities, but I'll keep looking.
 
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Arc F1

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Keep in mind, a single point of data (e.g. one-day of murders) is not necessarily indicative of a trend. If you want to really understand whether things are getting better or worse, one needs to look at the aggregated data over time on the subject.

And all data points to things being better off now than at most times in the past.

That's all more than I have time to get into right now. My point was that in California theft is down because it's no longer even reported under 100 dollars. Maybe crime is down in some areas and not others. Idk. I'm definitely not an expert.
 
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Albion

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That's all more than I have time to get into right now. My point was that in California theft is down because it's no longer even reported under 100 dollars. Maybe crime is down in some areas and not others. Idk. I'm definitely not an expert.
It was reported on some TV network news program that in New York shoplifting is now considered not worth that police department's time and effort to respond to any calls about it going on. Therefore, it just happens routinely and in broad daylight.
 
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