Pointing out other's faults when I have my own faults

[seeker2122]

I know about the passage that Jesus says not to judge the speck in someone else's eye when you have a plank in yours.
I just wonder about the context.

Since we are all sinners and all have our own faults, then technically, we would never be allowed to point out or raise up
any problems and criticisms in others because we have our own faults so who are we to ever criticize or judge someone else's
actions when in our own lives we are no better?

But I don't believe that is what it necessarily means. Agree or disagree? If you are talking about the same issue and you have
your own faults in that issue, then yes, you shouldn't criticize. But if your faults are in a totally different issue, I think it is ok.
Here's an example:

1) If I'm always late to meetings, late to scheduled events and horrible at keeping times, and then when someone else is late,
me pointing that out and criticizing them for their lateness is wrong since I am doing it worse.

2) If I'm always on time and reliable with keeping schedules times/dates and then someone else is not, then I have the right to
point it out and raise up the concern since I am exemplifying a good example even though I have my own faults in say
others issues like not being generous, being stingy, cheap, and let's say I also don't clean up after myself and leave a mess
everywhere and litter in public. So even though I have wrongs in other aspects of my life, since we are only talking about
lateness where I am a model example, then do I have the right to criticize others' lateness and raise it up it to their face? I
think yes even though I am not perfect in other areas of my life. Or do you think the passage is saying that since I litter in public,
that means I have no right to judge someone's lateness?


The reason why I ask this is because I often want to point out and raise up issues and concerns in church ministry about other people's
actions that were clearly wrong and could be improved. But everytime I think about wanting to say something, I feel guilty because I
know I am not perfect and I have my own sins but in a completely different area. Does that mean I should not have the right to speak
up or should I speak up knowing full well that person did something wrong and I want to correct the situation in a loving way even though
I myself have areas in my life that needs rebuking and correcting but in totally different subject matter.

Example: I want to point out and criticize how "X" is not doing a good job in welcoming others and reaching out to others when they should
be since they are in a role or position of leadership. In this matter, I am good at doing that (reaching out and welcoming) but I privately know
that in my own personal life, I sin all the time let's say with my words...using a lot of profanities and God's name in vain (privately)...so it's a
completely different topic and I am not telling others why they shouldn't use profanities (because that would be wrong of me since I do it myself). But it should be ok for me to criticize others failure to be welcoming and to reach out as leaders since I do that well even though I am not in a position of leadership.

 

[contratodo]

Which is a long plank of wood and which is a speck of dust? Lateness or littering?
The one with the long plank of wood in his eye is not going to be able to take away the speck of dust from his brothers eye.

Now, in a church setting there should be accountability especially among the leadership.
But rebuke not an older person, but appeal to him as a father, the younger as brothers. 1 Timothy 5:1
So we have to season what we say with love, say it very lovingly, and then for the most part pray privately about it.

 

[FameBright]

I know about the passage that Jesus says not to judge the speck in someone else's eye when you have a plank in yours.
I just wonder about the context.

Since we are all sinners and all have our own faults, then technically, we would never be allowed to point out or raise up
any problems and criticisms in others because we have our own faults so who are we to ever criticize or judge someone else's
actions when in our own lives we are no better?

But I don't believe that is what it necessarily means. Agree or disagree? If you are talking about the same issue and you have
your own faults in that issue, then yes, you shouldn't criticize. But if your faults are in a totally different issue, I think it is ok.
Here's an example:

1) If I'm always late to meetings, late to scheduled events and horrible at keeping times, and then when someone else is late,
me pointing that out and criticizing them for their lateness is wrong since I am doing it worse.

2) If I'm always on time and reliable with keeping schedules times/dates and then someone else is not, then I have the right to
point it out and raise up the concern since I am exemplifying a good example even though I have my own faults in say
others issues like not being generous, being stingy, cheap, and let's say I also don't clean up after myself and leave a mess
everywhere and litter in public. So even though I have wrongs in other aspects of my life, since we are only talking about
lateness where I am a model example, then do I have the right to criticize others' lateness and raise it up it to their face? I
think yes even though I am not perfect in other areas of my life. Or do you think the passage is saying that since I litter in public,
that means I have no right to judge someone's lateness?


The reason why I ask this is because I often want to point out and raise up issues and concerns in church ministry about other people's
actions that were clearly wrong and could be improved. But everytime I think about wanting to say something, I feel guilty because I
know I am not perfect and I have my own sins but in a completely different area. Does that mean I should not have the right to speak
up or should I speak up knowing full well that person did something wrong and I want to correct the situation in a loving way even though
I myself have areas in my life that needs rebuking and correcting but in totally different subject matter.

Example: I want to point out and criticize how "X" is not doing a good job in welcoming others and reaching out to others when they should
be since they are in a role or position of leadership. In this matter, I am good at doing that (reaching out and welcoming) but I privately know
that in my own personal life, I sin all the time let's say with my words...using a lot of profanities and God's name in vain (privately)...so it's a
completely different topic and I am not telling others why they shouldn't use profanities (because that would be wrong of me since I do it myself). But it should be ok for me to criticize others failure to be welcoming and to reach out as leaders since I do that well even though I am not in a position of leadership.

The thing about the Bible is it's a higher form of language and sometimes it takes a lot of wisdom to understand like figure of speeches, rhetoric, metaphors, parables, etc., etc.

For example, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell." Does this really mean to tear out our eyes? I think we'd all be blind but we get the point.

I know some people who won't set foot in a church because of the judgement they receive. Do they have the right to tell someone whether or not they're good enough to go to church? I think Jesus was referring those who judge that are in no position to judge. I think you may be fine in most cases. However, if you want to build good character and become a people person, I'd refrain from criticizing.

 

[Riot42]

"Let he who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone."

"None is righteous, no, not one"

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

With these verses in mind why risk your own judgement to point out someone else's sin? Are you without sin? No? so why risk it? What is your gain in pointing out someone's sin? How often does pointing out someone's sin actually convict them to the point of stopping? It usually ends up just damaging the relationship or starting a quarrel. Do you honestly think you can convict them better than the holy spirit?

Pray for them, ask the holy spirit to convict them of their sins as well as you for your own. This is the way.

 

[Joseph G]

Great OP and wise responses. I would like to throw in an 'on the other hand' to consider:

Proverbs 27:6

"Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses."

I know I've experienced times when a trusted friend got in my face for something and I eventually appreciated it - because I was set free. I figured that WAS the Holy Spirit convicting me through him.

So I dunno? Maybe more reason to rely on Him for each unique situation whether to say something or shut up and pray?

 

[Brihaha]

Church is the one place I recall the bible saying is okay to judge each other to keep each other in line with God's word. I Corinthians I believe. I try not to judge actions of others because it is God's purvey to judge pagans.

But in reading Psalms and Proverbs recently we are to use judgment for ourselves. My understanding is that we need to employ judgment to ourselves as discretion to prevent us from acting sinful. This form of judgment is also hard because we have to discipline ourselves and be honest with ourselves in regard to our own moral principles.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I know about the passage that Jesus says not to judge the speck in someone else's eye when you have a plank in yours.
I just wonder about the context.

Since we are all sinners and all have our own faults, then technically, we would never be allowed to point out or raise up
any problems and criticisms in others because we have our own faults so who are we to ever criticize or judge someone else's
actions when in our own lives we are no better?

But I don't believe that is what it necessarily means. Agree or disagree? If you are talking about the same issue and you have
your own faults in that issue, then yes, you shouldn't criticize. But if your faults are in a totally different issue, I think it is ok.
Here's an example:

1) If I'm always late to meetings, late to scheduled events and horrible at keeping times, and then when someone else is late,
me pointing that out and criticizing them for their lateness is wrong since I am doing it worse.

2) If I'm always on time and reliable with keeping schedules times/dates and then someone else is not, then I have the right to
point it out and raise up the concern since I am exemplifying a good example even though I have my own faults in say
others issues like not being generous, being stingy, cheap, and let's say I also don't clean up after myself and leave a mess
everywhere and litter in public. So even though I have wrongs in other aspects of my life, since we are only talking about
lateness where I am a model example, then do I have the right to criticize others' lateness and raise it up it to their face? I
think yes even though I am not perfect in other areas of my life. Or do you think the passage is saying that since I litter in public,
that means I have no right to judge someone's lateness?


The reason why I ask this is because I often want to point out and raise up issues and concerns in church ministry about other people's
actions that were clearly wrong and could be improved. But everytime I think about wanting to say something, I feel guilty because I
know I am not perfect and I have my own sins but in a completely different area. Does that mean I should not have the right to speak
up or should I speak up knowing full well that person did something wrong and I want to correct the situation in a loving way even though
I myself have areas in my life that needs rebuking and correcting but in totally different subject matter.

Example: I want to point out and criticize how "X" is not doing a good job in welcoming others and reaching out to others when they should
be since they are in a role or position of leadership. In this matter, I am good at doing that (reaching out and welcoming) but I privately know
that in my own personal life, I sin all the time let's say with my words...using a lot of profanities and God's name in vain (privately)...so it's a
completely different topic and I am not telling others why they shouldn't use profanities (because that would be wrong of me since I do it myself). But it should be ok for me to criticize others failure to be welcoming and to reach out as leaders since I do that well even though I am not in a position of leadership.

You're missing some additional contexts that affect the overall meaning and application of this passage.

Just say'n because I think you can find them easily enough.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I know about the passage that Jesus says not to judge the speck in someone else's eye when you have a plank in yours.
I just wonder about the context.

Since we are all sinners and all have our own faults, then technically, we would never be allowed to point out or raise up
any problems and criticisms in others because we have our own faults so who are we to ever criticize or judge someone else's
actions when in our own lives we are no better?

Constructively criticize? Fine. Judge? No.

But I don't believe that is what it necessarily means. Agree or disagree? If you are talking about the same issue and you have
your own faults in that issue, then yes, you shouldn't criticize. But if your faults are in a totally different issue, I think it is ok.
Here's an example:

1) If I'm always late to meetings, late to scheduled events and horrible at keeping times, and then when someone else is late,
me pointing that out and criticizing them for their lateness is wrong since I am doing it worse.

2) If I'm always on time and reliable with keeping schedules times/dates and then someone else is not, then I have the right to
point it out and raise up the concern since I am exemplifying a good example even though I have my own faults in say
others issues like not being generous, being stingy, cheap, and let's say I also don't clean up after myself and leave a mess
everywhere and litter in public. So even though I have wrongs in other aspects of my life, since we are only talking about
lateness where I am a model example, then do I have the right to criticize others' lateness and raise it up it to their face? I
think yes even though I am not perfect in other areas of my life. Or do you think the passage is saying that since I litter in public,
that means I have no right to judge someone's lateness?

In that scenario, it’s up to the meeting chair and/or that persons supervisor to bring up. If you are not one of those, it’s not up to you to bring it up and your being habitually late or on time has nothing to do with it.

If you are one of those, you can correct them on their performance, but constructively. And by constructively, they means by modeling the desired behavior yourself (being on time), and giving them factual, demonstrable feedback. Saying “your lateness puts the whole meeting agenda behind, disrupts the meeting when you enter late, and reflects poorly on your work ethic. Please arrive early or on time in the future.” Is appropriate.

However, saying “you are a careless, inattentive, and thoughtless employee who shows up to meetings late because you don’t care about the company, and for that, you’re going to hell” would not he ok. That passage reminds you that you have done plenty of things that, on their surface, could send you to hell as you yourself are not perfect, and just like you wouldn’t want to cast a judgment in Gods name on you, you don’t do it to them.

The reason why I ask this is because I often want to point out and raise up issues and concerns in church ministry about other people's
actions that were clearly wrong and could be improved.

In what sense? Because other people’s actions are typically none of your business and, you being better than them on whatever their action is doesn’t matter. It’s not up to you to comment.

But everytime I think about wanting to say something, I feel guilty because I
know I am not perfect and I have my own sins but in a completely different area. Does that mean I should not have the right to speak
up or should I speak up knowing full well that person did something wrong and I want to correct the situation in a loving way even though
I myself have areas in my life that needs rebuking and correcting but in totally different subject matter.

I grow weary of the “I’m correcting them in a loving manner” phraseology because usually that is somebody who has a level of self-awareness in knowing what they’re about to say isn’t appropriate or judgmental, but they want to say it anyway. The religious version of “I was joking, can’t you take a joke?”

Example: I want to point out and criticize how "X" is not doing a good job in welcoming others and reaching out to others when they should
be since they are in a role or position of leadership. In this matter, I am good at doing that (reaching out and welcoming) but I privately know
that in my own personal life, I sin all the time let's say with my words...using a lot of profanities and God's name in vain (privately)...so it's a
completely different topic and I am not telling others why they shouldn't use profanities (because that would be wrong of me since I do it myself). But it should be ok for me to criticize others failure to be welcoming and to reach out as leaders since I do that well even though I am not in a position of leadership.

No, that is none of your business. How they reach out and if it’s better or worse than how you do it is subjective. How they are reaching out may be the best they are able to do given circumstances you don’t see, and they may be exactly the way the people being reached out to would like to be approached. And since they are in a leadership position and you aren’t, you have no basis to compare how you’d perform in a similar situation.

Somebody who was upset about how they were reached out to recently can give feedback on how they felt, but you are an outside third party and thus it’s none of your business nor is it something for you to remark on.

In this specific scenario, the above passage doesn’t apply.

 

[rebornfree]

One of the leaders of my last church said that on the few occasions when he's had to discipline someone he's thought "There for the grace of God go I". Another gave me a good piece of advice which is to accept people as they are. We are all works in progress. Ephesians 4 v 2, 3 says "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

I wouldn't say anything about others' behaviour unless there was a serious breach of doctrine, such as denying the virgin birth of Jesus, or an obvious, serious sin in which case I suggest praying and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you in whom to speak to about it. Also pray for the person. For issues like greeting people, or leaving litter etc. I don't think we should start criticising each other. You could pray about the issue, but remember you have issues too and it is more important to love each other than to pick faults over relatively minor issues.

 

[seeker2122]

Constructively criticize? Fine. Judge? No.

In that scenario, it’s up to the meeting chair and/or that persons supervisor to bring up. If you are not one of those, it’s not up to you to bring it up and your being habitually late or on time has nothing to do with it.

If you are one of those, you can correct them on their performance, but constructively. And by constructively, they means by modeling the desired behavior yourself (being on time), and giving them factual, demonstrable feedback. Saying “your lateness puts the whole meeting agenda behind, disrupts the meeting when you enter late, and reflects poorly on your work ethic. Please arrive early or on time in the future.” Is appropriate.

However, saying “you are a careless, inattentive, and thoughtless employee who shows up to meetings late because you don’t care about the company, and for that, you’re going to hell” would not he ok. That passage reminds you that you have done plenty of things that, on their surface, could send you to hell as you yourself are not perfect, and just like you wouldn’t want to cast a judgment in Gods name on you, you don’t do it to them.

In what sense? Because other people’s actions are typically none of your business and, you being better than them on whatever their action is doesn’t matter. It’s not up to you to comment.

I grow weary of the “I’m correcting them in a loving manner” phraseology because usually that is somebody who has a level of self-awareness in knowing what they’re about to say isn’t appropriate or judgmental, but they want to say it anyway. The religious version of “I was joking, can’t you take a joke?”

No, that is none of your business. How they reach out and if it’s better or worse than how you do it is subjective. How they are reaching out may be the best they are able to do given circumstances you don’t see, and they may be exactly the way the people being reached out to would like to be approached. And since they are in a leadership position and you aren’t, you have no basis to compare how you’d perform in a similar situation.

Somebody who was upset about how they were reached out to recently can give feedback on how they felt, but you are an outside third party and thus it’s none of your business nor is it something for you to remark on.

In this specific scenario, the above passage doesn’t apply.

I think the problem is in semantics. Many of us don't have a clear understanding of what is judging because it can mean a lot of things. I agree that judging is more on the plane of judging them as a soul, human, being. We cannot condemn someone's life to hell or salvation. That to me is judging. But judging their "actions" is not judging them. It's more of a definition akin to rebuking and correcting or criticizing their actions which is fair game and open to criticism. I don't think that is judging.

So as you mentioned, if someone is always late, I can judge their actions by saying it's wrong, or it should be improved, corrected, disciplined, but I won't ever say the person is going to hell because of that, or the person is an awful person. But then I think you can say the person is unreliable. That isn't judging. That is statement based on the evidence of facts (person is always late, therefore unreliable or untrustworthy to count on). That doesn't mean I judge them. It means I judge their actions.

I like to think of it like sports athletes. If I'm the coach of a team and my player is doing bad habits in the game and costing us matches, then I can critic and judge the players in game performances and say, this player is unreliable defensively, so I will reduce their minutes in crucial moments of the game. That's perfectly legit and not judging. Judging would be, if I as the coach, after the game, decided this player is a bad human being, wouldn't make a good father, husband, and is failure as a person outside of the game. That is judging and I'd have no right to judge someone as the Bible says. But in the game, I don't think criticizing someone's mistakes, errors, and bad habits is judging them. Yes, I am judging game, but I am not judging their soul or being.

If we translate this over to church setting, this where I think ppl have problems. If I point out or criticize or "complain" about something or someone's actions, then they say you are judging and don't judge and who are we to judge? It's completely misguided context. Judging actions is fine. Judging their life and their soul is wrong. But if Christians think we shouldn't judge anything at all at all times, period end of story, then that means we cannot say anything ever and just remain quiet, obedient, and let God handle everything somehow. This seems to be manipulative and coercive to control the masses and thus this idea of "do not judge" is dangerous and incorrect IMHO.

 

[com7fy8]

If someone is late, I might evaluate why. And if the person is very good for the company or ministry, I might talk with the person and see what we can do.

Others might be less caring but able to make gestures of being on time, maybe so they can socialize. If you don't have a rapport to talk with the person, this is a bigger problem that needs attention.

I might not push a less friendly person to act more welcoming. I would want it to be genuine.

A pastor's son might not be as attentive to people as they wish. But he is preaching, caring for his wife and children, helping people at work. It might be time for him to take a quiet breath, and/or keep his mind on some responsibility behind the scenes during a gathering.

But if you can give in to wrong stuff by yourself, you need to get more real in secret . . . so you can minister this to others. Our example in the sight of God, in secret, can be spread by Him to make others the same way.

But we can be more blessed than usual, while with other Christians ministering to us. So, yes be blessed in church. And do bless others.

And with ones you have a sharing relationship, talk about things which are an issue, and pray for one another > James 5:16, Ephesians 4:31-32.

And sometimes you can see something about another person. And it is like your thing. You can confess how your thing is wrong, and this can help alert the other person to not do that.

I might point out how I get away from loving, by lusting and staring at beautifull women instead of first loving them and caring about them in prayer.

And I shared how I was getting corrected from arguing, and then how I could get into loving and being creative, and then I could do better than what I had tried to argue for my lady friend to do. I was more creative while I was not trying to control her with arguing, and offering myself to God for correction and what He could do with us.

I shared like this in church, with a woman who is attractive and godly. I could connect with her, because I was ready to be honorable with her.

So, be ready for love; in prayer get ready. Then we can discover how we can share and relate with people.

The lady is married with children. So, I brought up the arguing subject and shared my experience, just in case it could be good for her. I did not know if she fights with her husband, but it might help encourage her. She seems genuine enough to stay out of arguing, but hearing my experience could encourage her that God is working in someone she knows.

You don't have to know if and how others are sinning. You can share your testimony and God's word, and see who you can connect with while you do this.

Another woman let me see an inappropriate part of her after we sat together and she was walking away. We did not connect much to talk, for a reason, I suppose. But I was ready for a godly and mature woman, and it then worked out for me to share with one. Make sure you are sharing with the real Christians, above all. Talk about how we need real correction, help each other.

And then be an example for ones who are more obviously wrong; God uses example > 1 Peter 5:3, 1 Peter 3:1-4.

In case a leader does things wrong > this can be because the leader is not saved or is not qualified, in which case the isolated wrong action is not what really needs attention.You can talk with someone who is a proven example and mentor, who knows the wrong leader. And trust the mature person to handle it.