Akita Suggagaki

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The IbanezerScrooge

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Meh... I feel like in a very ironic way philosophies like this are a result of over-thinking about reality. I just don't think there needs to be some metaphysical origin to consciousness. It just doesn't seem that mysterious to me. I'm perfectly fine with an emergent property, physical origin for our consciousness and everything that goes with that.
 
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public hermit

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I'm very curious about it. I have read a little bit of Galen Strawson. I think physicalists like Strawson are trying to work with the fact that consciousness doesn't easily fit into the usual assumptions of physicalism.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Meh... I feel like in a very ironic way philosophies like this are a result of over-thinking about reality. I just don't think there needs to be some metaphysical origin to consciousness. It just doesn't seem that mysterious to me. I'm perfectly fine with an emergent property, physical origin for our consciousness and everything that goes with that.
To each his on on stuff like this but "emergent property" doesn't really explain anything.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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To each his on on stuff like this but "emergent property" doesn't really explain anything.

That's fair, but I'm more referring to consciousness as a physical aspect of the brain as it emerges from layer upon layer of interaction between different cascading processes that occur in the brain and body. Consciousness is what the brain does. These different philosophies about it seem to me to treat consciousness and thought as something else, something other and usually touch on, in an academic way, some spiritual aspect to everything. I just don't buy that.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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That's fair, but I'm more referring to consciousness as a physical aspect of the brain as it emerges from layer upon layer of interaction between different cascading processes that occur in the brain and body. Consciousness is what the brain does. These different philosophies about it seem to me to treat consciousness and thought as something else, something other and usually touch on, in an academic way, some spiritual aspect to everything. I just don't buy that.
But is consciousness physical? It seems meta-physical. And all those cascading processes all seem too elegant to be lacking some sort of underlying consciousness. And we don't really understand physical matter beyond some quantum theories. But, I like me my wu and yet I have grown to appreciate skepticism.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I'm very curious about it. I have read a little bit of Galen Strawson. I think physicalists like Strawson are trying to work with the fact that consciousness doesn't easily fit into the usual assumptions of physicalism.
Galan Strawson is a new name for me. Thanks for mentioning him.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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In philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that mind or a mind-like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality.

Panpsychism - Wikipedia

Who is with me on this?
Not sure what you're asking - you haven't expressed an opinion...

Personally, I don't find panpsychism a particularly interesting or useful idea - in my view, it ranks extremely low as a hypothesis for consciousness. It doesn't seem to explain consciousness, it just makes it universal, and it raises far more questions than it purports to answer. It seems like a kind of escapism - "we can't explain it so it must be fundamental", i.e. let's just make it a brute fact. It also seems to ignore the patterns and levels of consciousness we see around us (i.e. in living creatures).

My questions would be:

How does it help us understand consciousness? what, specifically, does it explain?
How is it testable? what evidence is there for it?
What predictions does it make?
Do fundamental particles have consciousness or awareness? If so, what does it mean for fundamental particles to have consciousness or awareness?
Does an atom have its own consciousness, or is it a collection of particle consciousnesses?
How does macro-scale consciousness emerge from fundamental consciousness?
Do rocks and tables have their own consciousness? if so, how? if not, why not?
Why are the observable correlates of consciousness only associated with biological brains?
Why does the richness of conscious experience appear to correlate to a particular sophistication of brain processing?

Philosopher Philip Goff describes a form of panpsychism whereby the properties of fundamental particles, such as charge and spin, are themselves expressions of consciousness - so that consciousness is not an ontological extra, the physical world as we know it is an expression of consciousness at a fundamental level. I wonder how he would answer the questions above (or if he could answer them).
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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Why are the observable correlates of consciousness only associated with biological brains?
Why does the richness of conscious experience appear to correlate to a particular sophistication of brain processing?

These in particular are great questions.
 
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Larniavc

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Akita Suggagaki

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Great questions for chapters in a book.

I hopewill get t
Personally, I don't find panpsychism a particularly interesting or useful idea - in my view, it ranks extremely low as a hypothesis for consciousness. It doesn't seem to explain consciousness, it just makes it universal, and it raises far more questions than it purports to answer. It seems like a kind of escapism - "we can't explain it so it must be fundamental", i.e. let's just make it a brute fact. It also seems to ignore the patterns and levels of consciousness we see around us (i.e. in living creatures).

My questions would be:

How does it help us understand consciousness? what, specifically, does it explain?

I can't argue much with your opening critique. Panpsychism does not explain consciousness and even goes contrary to our usual understanding of consciousness since we normally see it as dependent on highly evolved life forms.

But I think it is a valuable paradigm shift that repositions dependencies. If consciousness is first then all the complexities and intricacies of matter and life leading up to who we are have intention. Is that intention desirable? I guess for me it is. But Panpscyhism would also be necessary for my other pet philosophy, Non-dualism. In any case, i think we all do need to thing more about our interconnectedness and have less idolatry of our "me first" stance.

"How is it testable? what evidence is there for it?
What predictions does it make?"

I cant pretend to understand quantum physics but I have read about how that level of being requires an entirely different approach to physics.

Even as I begin this thread I realize I have some catching u to do.
Panpsychism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
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durangodawood

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To each his on on stuff like this but "emergent property" doesn't really explain anything.
"Emergent property" describes a category of explanations. But, no, its not an actual explanation itself in any particulars.

In this case, the many of the particulars of the emergence of consciousness have yet to be worked out. My money would be on an emergence type explanation rather than invoking some whole other realm of reality.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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"Emergent property" describes a category of explanations. But, no, its not an actual explanation itself in any particulars.

In this case, the many of the particulars of the emergence of consciousness have yet to be worked out. My money would be on an emergence type explanation rather than invoking some whole other realm of reality.

I am really talking beyond my knowledge but "emergent property" seems analogous to Newtonian and accounts for reality as we see it happening while Panpsychism seems analogous to Quantum and helps us understand the puzzles we find there.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I cant pretend to understand quantum physics but I have read about how that level of being requires an entirely different approach to physics.
... Panpsychism seems analogous to Quantum and helps us understand the puzzles we find there.
I'm curious to know why you think quantum mechanics 'seems analogous to' and might have some relevance to panpsychism - in what way is it analogous?
 
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