Plurality of elders in the egalitarian community

[All4Christ]

After I posted, I started thinking about that as well. There's a lot of both expertise and responsibility that we tend to put in the lap of our pastor, in the paid-ordained-pastor model. If we're going to distribute the pastoral office across a group of elders, we'd need to have serious training to go with it, and we'd have to make sure pastoral responsibilities don't fall through the cracks.

On the responsibilities: Currently, if someone is sick, I assume that our pastor is going to go and visit them. If it's a group of elders, we have to make sure that one of us actually visits the sick person. If each of us assumes someone else will do it, maybe nobody actually does it.

On the training: If the preaching office is now distributed across a group of elders, we probably need university-level religious training for this whole group of elders. Greek classes, theology books, training in pastoral care -- all that expertise that we rely on in our pastor. With great shared responsibility comes...great hard work.

No idea how the oversight works. Can Quakers have bishops? a strange idea. I haven't seen this model in practice, so I don't quite know how everything fits together.

In our parish, certain ministries are spearheaded by various people and / or roles, who ensure that the ministry is successful and completed. For example, the diaconate (both deacons and the deaconesses, though deaconesses today are rare in our church) has always been first and foremost service. Literally, that’s the definition - and at least in my church is the core part of the position. Granted, deacons also serve in liturgy, but that also is service in a different form. In some parishes though, someone who is not ordained may also take charge of that, if that is their gift.

Apostles and evangelists are not solely the role of clergy. Men and women are called to that. Some priests are excellent at teaching - but some are more pastoral and are not teachers. I’ve seen it both ways. Women and men are both called to do that. Anyone gifted in teaching and theology can be a catechist. It is not solely the responsibility of the priest or deacon. We can have either a spiritual father or spiritual mother - those charged to guide us in our spiritual journey. That is sometimes provided by a priest or clergy - and other times provided by those gifted in that area. Administration typically is not led by the priest intentionally. There is a council for that.

**All that said, at least in the model my church follows, there is an ultimate responsibility for the priest, bishop, abbot or abbess (presbyter…overseer) to ensure the proper spiritual care of their community. They are, however, accountable not just to their leadership, but also to the people they serve.**

We all are gifted in our own ways, and need to serve God and each other with those gifts.

 

[PloverWing]

Anyone gifted in teaching and theology can be a catechist.

What does the role of a catechist look like in your church? It sounds interesting.

 

[All4Christ]

What does the role of a catechist look like in your church? It sounds interesting.

A catechist needs to be well versed in theology (typically either going through a catechist training or by attending seminary). They also need to be gifted in teaching and explaining the faith and teachings. Often, it would be held during the time children go to church school or during a regularly scheduled weekly session, and is open to anyone, whether they are a catechumen, parishioner, inquirer or visitor.

Their role ultimately is to ensure anyone who joins the church is fully aware of the teachings of the faith prior to joining. It typically is a year process for a catechumen to become a part of the Orthodox Church. It also is to provide regular teaching for the faithful as well.

Someday I would love to attend training for that. They had a partially remote 6 month training for that (near enough to me that I could attend the in person sessions), but it was paused during COVID and has not started up again. I hope they bring it back. I’d attend seminary if I could, but my current situation doesn’t allow for me to leave my job for that.

 

[Paidiske]

Do Orthodox seminaries ever offer units online, or in the evening? I know one of the Catholic colleges here, which does a lot of training for religious education teachers, hold a lot of their classes in the evening to make it possible for working people to go.

 

[All4Christ]

Do Orthodox seminaries ever offer units online, or in the evening? I know one of the Catholic colleges here, which does a lot of training for religious education teachers, hold a lot of their classes in the evening to make it possible for working people to go.

I’ve been exploring one that is online - though I wouldn’t be given a M Div for it. My hesitation is that there aren’t many live discussions or classes, and I love that aspect of learning. I’m still considering it though and looking for additional options as well.

** I found their book list online awhile ago and have been reading through the required books for their course. . Many I read before but I’ve found a lot of good books that way.

 

[Paidiske]

I agree that in-person is far preferable. It was hard before Covid, though, and now... I hope you can find the right thing!

 

[All4Christ]

I agree that in-person is far preferable. It was hard before Covid, though, and now... I hope you can find the right thing!

Me too! It’s something I’ve mulled over for a long time and thought through how to do it. Someday I’ll make it work.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'm mulling this over, and it seems that much depends on the particular form of government that a congregation follows, and the forms of officially-recognized leadership that the congregation has. In my Episcopal parish, we have a paid priest who preaches and a vestry (a group of about 8 lay people) who make decisions for the congregation. We're small enough that we can't afford to pay more than one pastor, but we have gender diversity on the vestry. A different Episcopal church near me is large enough to have several pastors. Their senior rector is a married woman, and their assistants are a married man and a single man. I like the variety there, for the reasons that 3 Resurrections has said.

What I'm hearing from Aussie Pete, though, is a different idea: No ordained pastor at all, with responsibilities for preaching, teaching, and decision-making shared amongst a group of elders in the congregation. In that setup, you could have wonderful diversity amongst the elders of the church: multiple genders, multiple ethnic groups, multiple kinds of ministry callings, and so on. One week the speaker might be a married woman with a heart for social justice; the next week, a single man devoted to contemplative prayer. It's different from what I'm used to, but it's an interesting idea. Not so different from the Quakers, perhaps.

The nearest I've come across is the Brethren. They started out a movement but ended up a denomination. Which is pretty much the norm, regrettably. I've not attended a Quaker meeting.

Fundamentally every fellowship should be under the authority of Christ. There is individual submission to His authority. If everyone is right in that aspect, it will be right in corporate life also. The less mature should be willing to learn from the more mature, but that is rare these days. Diversity for the sake of it is worldly, not spiritual. Treating people as inferior because of race or gender is unacceptable to God. Division is a blight on the church and a major reason for the problems the church has created for itself. Psalm 133 should be tattooed inside the eyelids of every Christian!

 

[Aussie Pete]

This is both untrue and highly derogatory.

Did you realise this is the Egalitarian forum?

The egalitarian forum description does not work, at least on my system. The summary says that it regards men and women as equal. I agree 100%. However, that does not mean that they are the same.

 

[Paidiske]

This is not the place to debate the SOP, however. One either posts as someone who agrees with the SOP, or posts in fellowship. One might note, in particular: "Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic."

 

[The Liturgist]

Do Orthodox seminaries ever offer units online, or in the evening? I know one of the Catholic colleges here, which does a lot of training for religious education teachers, hold a lot of their classes in the evening to make it possible for working people to go.

Yes. ROCOR has a complete distance learning program for people wanting to be priests, and a few other jurisdictions have online programs; I know of one specifically for training deacons. As far as evening classes, I haven’t heard of that, although I like the idea; one thing to consider however is the daily chapel is integral to the experience of the major Orthodox seminaries like St. Vladimir’s and Holy Trinity. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox priests, and priests of the Assyrian Church of the East, have to be able to sing and chant, because nearly everything in the Orthodox church aside from the homily is sung (and they used to be, in the Syriac tradition: see the homilies of St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. Jacob of Sarugh and Mar Narsai; at least one of these homilies is still in common use, Haw Nurone, which is used as a communion hymn at the end of the liturgy in some churches in the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, for example, St. Ephrem’s Cathedral in Burbank; it is extremely short however, shorter even than the Paschal Homily of St. Chrysostom).

 

[The Liturgist]

@All4Christ - would you feel comfortable sharing your jurisdiction? I can take a look at the seminaries and see how they are operating. By the way I believe ROCOR also has online training for catechists. The man to talk to about that is Fr. John Whiteford, who provides the definitive guide on obtaining an Eastern Orthodox liturgical library (which is, for those readers not versed in Orthodoxy, a long, slow and difficult process; I myself have everything except the recently reissued Trebnik, or Book of Needs (also called a Euchologion, which has all sacraments except the Eucharist, the funeral service and a vast areay of blessings for different occasions, the complete eight volume set of Octoechos, a 12 Volume Monthly Menaion, which costs an eyewatering $1200, a liturgical Gospel Book, Epistle Book, and Prophetologion*

Of course the need for these is reduced if one gets the “Nasser Five Pounder,” which is out of print but incredibly useful; all sacraments are contained in Isabel Florence Hapgood’s 19th century pioneering translation of the Russian Orthodox service books, the scripture lessons of the liturgical year are presented, Book of Common Prayer style, in an excellent service book by the exiled Albanian Archbishop St. Fan Noli, who worked to preserve Albanian Orthodoxy in the face of Enver Hoxha’s plans to kill it, and finally, the Festal Menaion translated by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary.

Also as an online resource, Archimandrite Ephrem, memory eternal, translated into contemporary English pretty much everything...

I know a number of female readers and choir directors who have the full liturgical library, often in English and Greek or Church Slavonic.

*old testament lessons which are read at Vespers, and only at Vespers; the New Testament and the Psalter dominate at Matins and the Divine Liturgy, where the familiar Epistle - Alleluia - Gospel pattern also used much of the time by the Roman Rite is followed (as opposed to Old Testament - Epistle - Gospel which is of Gallican Rife origin and is still found in the Mozarabic and Ambrosian Rites, the former a derivative of the Gallican Rite and the latter a partial Romanization, but only of the text, specifically, the introduction of the Roman Canon as a standard anaphora). And of course the Assyrians have two Old Testament lessons, which correspond with Torah/Haftarah pairings from the lectionary of the Babylonian Talmud, which makes sense because the Church of the East was headquartered in Seleucia-Cstesiphon, where the Babylonian Talmud was compiled.

 

[All4Christ]

@The Liturgist I’m part of the OCA.

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist I’m part of the OCA.

Oh cool, my old and future stomping grounds (actually I am crushing on ROCOR, so it just depends on how things work out with my Wesleyan Ex Oriente Lux type Congregationalist project, and where I wind up next).

Obviously your three main seminaries are SVS, St. Tikhon’s and St. Herman’s. I will take a look to see what online programs are available. Also I will try and find out if the ROCOR and Antiochian programs are accepted in the OCA. I will need to place a few phone calls to some friends, which I have to place anyway, but even if you find out something on your own, I should have, barring unforeseen emergencies, some confirmation and supplemental information in the next 24-48 hours.

God bless you and good luck.

 

[The Liturgist]

I absolutely agree about the value of team ministry; however your congregation shapes that, that the work of leading, teaching, presiding, preaching, and so on be shared. The model where one person tries to be and do all the things is not healthy.

I also agree that a mix of genders in the team is a really good thing; that the experiences, wisdom and so on of both genders have a place at the table. And that there be both men and women available for the situations where someone really prefer one or the other for pastoral care (a minority, but often sensitive and significant, of situations).

Of course, the issue is often pay, and how the church could pay more than one person. There are real practicalities to consider. Perhaps two smaller churches could work together, share ministry, and create a team that way, or some other creative approach could be taken.

I am much less convinced by the idea that the ideal is a married couple. I mean, sometimes it happens that both spouses are called, gifted and authorised for ministry by their church, but most of us don't marry people who also have that sense of vocation. I don't think it's a good idea to say to someone with a vocation that they must seek a spouse with a vocation, or to pressure the spouse into ministry if they don't feel genuinely called to it. Marriage and ministry should each be decisions made on their own terms. (Personally, I definitely feel it is a healthy thing for me to have a spouse and a marriage which is not bound up in my ministry).

I've worked as part of a ministry team with a man, in different situations. In neither case did we find a risk of improprieties, but I can see how that could happen. Ministry is sometimes very emotionally intense, and if the person you share that intensity with, and the intimacy if working six days a week, and all of that is also someone you find attractive and boundaries are poor... I don't think it's a reason not to do it, but I think it's a reason to think carefully about how you manage yourself in team ministry.

There is a United Methodist Church here that has a husband and wife team, both elders, and also this model is extremely common in the Salvation Army, which is another Wesleyan-influenced denomination, where Officers (SA Clergy) are very frequently married couples.

 

[Gregorikos]

There is a United Methodist Church here that has a husband and wife team, both elders, and also this model is extremely common in the Salvation Army, which is another Wesleyan-influenced denomination, where Officers (SA Clergy) are very frequently married couples.

I think that is a very good model when it can be done. It solves the 1 Timothy 2:12 concern that some may have about a wife teaching or having authority over her husband. (Although having such a concern isn't an egalitarian belief and I don't hold to it myself.)

 

[Paidiske]

There is a United Methodist Church here that has a husband and wife team, both elders, and also this model is extremely common in the Salvation Army, which is another Wesleyan-influenced denomination, where Officers (SA Clergy) are very frequently married couples.

When I've had the chance to speak to women who are Salvation Army officers, they tell me that often their ministry is stifled by working alongside their husbands. That their husbands take the more public, more authoritative parts of the role, and leave the drudge work to the wives, that sort of thing. The local officer here is a woman whose husband has just reached retirement age, and for the first time in her ministry, she's actually being given scope to live up to her ministry potential.

Which is just to say, I suspect the theory and the practise are often worlds apart...

 

[The Liturgist]

When I've had the chance to speak to women who are Salvation Army officers, they tell me that often their ministry is stifled by working alongside their husbands. That their husbands take the more public, more authoritative parts of the role, and leave the drudge work to the wives, that sort of thing. The local officer here is a tedwoman whose husband has just reached retirement age, and for the first time in her ministry, she's actually being given scope to live up to her ministry potential.

Which is just to say, I suspect the theory and the practise are often worlds apart...

That’s good to know. I myself am supportive of their charitable work but the lack of sacraments makes me uncomfortable, since from my perspective once the basic needs are provided, the supreme act of charity is to provide the holy mysteries.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think that is a very good model when it can be done. It solves the 1 Timothy 2:12 concern that some may have about a wife teaching or having authority over her husband. (Although having such a concern isn't an egalitarian belief and I don't hold to it myself.)

Just to be clear I don’t endorse either the UMC parish or the SA officers practices; I merely am denoting their existence for the benefit of the OP.