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Pls help with 1 Timothy 6:12, 19

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Ringu

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Hi. I just came back from the Bible study (1 Tim 6:12-end).

Here's the verse: "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." and "17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." (in other versions v.19 reads like "...that they may take hold of eternal life").

My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about. In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".

Secondly, what does it mean "to take hold"? To keep it [salvation] in focus, as some say, or to actually hold on to this eternal life [like it can disappear if we let it go for a second]. Or maybe something else? Because to me "take hold" does not make much sence, as "take hold" is a phrase that can be applied to physical things in physical world, but "eternal life" is spiritual, so how can you actually hold something that is spiritual? This suggests that it's a figure of speach. In such case, what does this figure of speach mean?

Also, v.19 is phrased in a way that kind of says that if you do all these good things in vs.17-18, you MAYBE BE ABLE to take hold of eternal life, because it says "tell them to do that and that and that... that they may take hold of eternal life". In light of other passages in the Bible I believe that we do not receive salvation on the basis of good works, but because of faith, by God's grace. So definitely Paul would not contradict the rest of the Bible here. So what does he mean? Or is this a fault of translation? Or does this verse even talk about salvation, or maybe something else?

Please help me out here.
 

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Ringu said:
Hi. I just came back from the Bible study (1 Tim 6:12-end).

Here's the verse: "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." and "17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." (in other versions v.19 reads like "...that they may take hold of eternal life").

My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about. In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".

Secondly, what does it mean "to take hold"? To keep it [salvation] in focus, as some say, or to actually hold on to this eternal life [like it can disappear if we let it go for a second]. Or maybe something else? Because to me "take hold" does not make much sence, as "take hold" is a phrase that can be applied to physical things in physical world, but "eternal life" is spiritual, so how can you actually hold something that is spiritual? This suggests that it's a figure of speach. In such case, what does this figure of speach mean?

Also, v.19 is phrased in a way that kind of says that if you do all these good things in vs.17-18, you MAYBE BE ABLE to take hold of eternal life, because it says "tell them to do that and that and that... that they may take hold of eternal life". In light of other passages in the Bible I believe that we do not receive salvation on the basis of good works, but because of faith, by God's grace. So definitely Paul would not contradict the rest of the Bible here. So what does he mean? Or is this a fault of translation? Or does this verse even talk about salvation, or maybe something else?

Please help me out here.
Paul also writes "to work out our salvation with fear and trembling"
So don't take it for granted. It is like marriage, sometimes you can get by, but for a successful marriage you have to work at it.
Macca. :preach:
 
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billychum

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Our eternal life happens because of Gods grace and our good confession just as Paul has stated. He could mean here to take hold of the eternal life, so to be distributers of Gods gift to others. In other words, you were saved by confessing your faith in Christ now go and help others by helping them to focus on the righteous life.
Billy <><
 
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Edial

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Ringu said:
Hi. I just came back from the Bible study (1 Tim 6:12-end).

Here's the verse: "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." and "17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." (in other versions v.19 reads like "...that they may take hold of eternal life").

My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about.
In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".
Secondly, what does it mean "to take hold"? To keep it [salvation] in focus, as some say, or to actually hold on to this eternal life [like it can disappear if we let it go for a second]. Or maybe something else? Because to me "take hold" does not make much sence, as "take hold" is a phrase that can be applied to physical things in physical world, but "eternal life" is spiritual, so how can you actually hold something that is spiritual? This suggests that it's a figure of speach. In such case, what does this figure of speach mean?

Also, v.19 is phrased in a way that kind of says that if you do all these good things in vs.17-18, you MAYBE BE ABLE to take hold of eternal life, because it says "tell them to do that and that and that... that they may take hold of eternal life". In light of other passages in the Bible I believe that we do not receive salvation on the basis of good works, but because of faith, by God's grace. So definitely Paul would not contradict the rest of the Bible here. So what does he mean? Or is this a fault of translation? Or does this verse even talk about salvation, or maybe something else?

Please help me out here.

Good observations.

He is talking about the only eternal life that we receive from the Christ.

Taking hold of eternal life does not mean that you never had it, you just never "exercised" it. You never "walked" in it.
Many will be saved because they put their faith in Christ. However, they might never exercise that eternal life. Never walked in Christ.

The Strong's number is 1949. This shows grabbing, holding, and such.

It appears that a person was already saved, yet never took charge, never utilized his newly acquired "tool".

The following verse is talking about the same thing.

PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

In the above verses, the salvation is there for the listeners. They are saved. And it appears that they just started walking with the Lord. They are "working out" their salvation, which they already have. Exercising it, in a way.
They are walking "in" their salvation. New methodology of living. New rules - by faith.

This is a very important part in the Christian's life, when they walk according to who they become.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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JohnJones

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Ringu said:
My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about. In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".

Eternal life cannot mean anything other than salvation. The simple solution is that present salvation is in prospect--future salvation is actual. When we beleive, repent, confess, and are baptized into Christ, we are saved....but that doesn't mean we will be saved. Our present salvation is in prospect. If we continue faithful to the end we will have actual salvation in the more permanent sense. Note how the Bible refers to salvation as being "joint heirs with Christ." Don't heris usually have a period of time before they receive the inheritance in actuality? and is it not usually conditional on good sonship? Does a father generally give his rebellious son who curses him to his face continually and punches him in the gut and steals his money--does a father normally leave much of anything to such a son? In the parable of the prodigal there were two sons. Did not one of them lose his inheritance? Granted he repented and got it back, but before that he lost it! And in the parable the father did not go compel the son to return...he waited for him to return. Do you not think that some will go prodigal from God and wait too late to return?
 
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Ringu said:
Hi. I just came back from the Bible study (1 Tim 6:12-end).

Here's the verse: "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." and "17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." (in other versions v.19 reads like "...that they may take hold of eternal life").

My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about. In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".

Secondly, what does it mean "to take hold"? To keep it [salvation] in focus, as some say, or to actually hold on to this eternal life [like it can disappear if we let it go for a second]. Or maybe something else? Because to me "take hold" does not make much sence, as "take hold" is a phrase that can be applied to physical things in physical world, but "eternal life" is spiritual, so how can you actually hold something that is spiritual? This suggests that it's a figure of speach. In such case, what does this figure of speach mean?

Also, v.19 is phrased in a way that kind of says that if you do all these good things in vs.17-18, you MAYBE BE ABLE to take hold of eternal life, because it says "tell them to do that and that and that... that they may take hold of eternal life". In light of other passages in the Bible I believe that we do not receive salvation on the basis of good works, but because of faith, by God's grace. So definitely Paul would not contradict the rest of the Bible here. So what does he mean? Or is this a fault of translation? Or does this verse even talk about salvation, or maybe something else?

Please help me out here.

Exactly
 
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Ringu

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"Exactly" what???

2 JohnJones
Good points, but in the story about prodigal son, the son is still the son, no matter if he is good or bad, no matter if he inherits all or zero, he's still going to be a son.

2 Edial
I really liked your post.
But I have a follow-up question -- what about verse 19 in that chapter? How's salvation ("eternal life") there connected to the good works? From the way it's phrased, it seems that "eternal life" is a result of good works.

2 everyone:
Thanks for comments. But please, do not quote whole posts, it's not a good forum ethics.
 
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Ringu said:
My question here is, what "eternal life" is Paul talking about. In v.12 Paul put "eternal life comes" after "fighting the good fight", so I assume that here it does not necessarily mean salvation, because it would not make sence to put salvation after "fighting the fight".

Your assumptions are skewing an honest reading of this passage.

Secondly, what does it mean "to take hold"? To keep it [salvation] in focus, as some say, or to actually hold on to this eternal life [like it can disappear if we let it go for a second] . Or maybe something else? Because to me "take hold" does not make much sence, as "take hold" is a phrase that can be applied to physical things in physical world, but "eternal life" is spiritual, so how can you actually hold something that is spiritual? This suggests that it's a figure of speach. In such case, what does this figure of speach mean?

You basically answered the question yourself, though the expression "let go for a second" is a little extreme.

Also, v.19 is phrased in a way that kind of says that if you do all these good things in vs.17-18, you MAYBE BE ABLE to take hold of eternal life, because it says "tell them to do that and that and that... that they may take hold of eternal life". In light of other passages in the Bible I believe that we do not receive salvation on the basis of good works, but because of faith, by God's grace. So definitely Paul would not contradict the rest of the Bible here. So what does he mean? Or is this a fault of translation? Or does this verse even talk about salvation, or maybe something else?

Eternal life is salvation, so the passage is adressing this directly. You are just not comfortable with the implications of Paul's statements.

Please help me out here.

You seemed to have come to the conclusions I would have, based on a straight forward reading of this passage, hence my reply. I know that I am in the minority here in reguards to the nature of salvation, but I would encourage you to read this passage honestly, which I think you have. (And I do not imply that others are doshonest, but maybe approach it with some preconceptions)

It is my opinion that some have built an entire theology around the verses in John 6 which state that Christ will not lose any that God the Father has given them, and will raise them up at the last day. Besides these verses, I do not see any others that would "directly" state that a person can not lose their salvation. The passages in Romans and Ephesians often quoted in this reguard concerning election and predestination are dificult to reconcile with other passages like the one you mentioned, and even the Philipians verse Edial quoted, as well as many others.
The issues being dealt with by Paul in these instances are generally concerning the sovereignty of God and the inclusion of the gentiles into the plan, mystery, of salvation, or maybe better put, the new covenant.

What you need to do, as well as all Christians, is to identify the nature of God's sovereignty. That is a mighty task, and one that many leave alone, even as Paul recomends stating, "who are you to say to God, 'why have you made me thus?' ".

The issue becomes for me, what is my response, which is fairly straight forward in its presentation in the NT, even though I may not understand the mystery and workings of a transcendant and all powerful God, whose foolishness exceeds the wisdom of all men put together.
But given the nature of man and his quest for the truth, and the freedom that accompanies it, might I suggest an apophatic approach to the theological parts of the NT, and their application. Meaning, take what is definetly known about the nature of God, and interpret the rest of scripture within that frame work, and allow for the mysteries of God to remain so, if and until those are revealed.
 
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shernren

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If you look at the context: just before Paul has been talking about the love of money and how it ruins Christian spirituality. So here Paul is giving advice to Timothy on how to deal with it (my reading) 1stly Paul tells Timothy to make sure that he himself is in no way influenced (v11-16), and then tells him what to tell the people (v17-19). So to me, it may be that the command to "take hold" is in contrast to their current condition: they have been holding so fast to their money, now let go and take hold of the eternal life!

Also the "eternal life" may not refer simply to a duration of existence (I'm not going into universalism here); it may refer in addition to a quality of life. Not sure of your version but the NIV gives "take hold of the life that is truly life", I think the word used in the original is zoe (any confirmations?) i.e. a "Spirit-filled life" as opposed to bios the "natural life".

You are right that we are not saved by works, but by grace. And yet we are commanded to live out our salvation! This is difficult I must admit. I think that if we really know the grace of God and the agony of the Cross by which Jesus purchased our salvation we will truly desire to live out our salvation. Also, while Jesus says He gives us eternal life, I suppose it is possible for us to throw away what He has given... the book of Hebrews read plainly clearly states that. In fact it gives the exact analogy of the Jews, the originally chosen people of God who forsook their "chosenness", as it were, and as a result lost an entire generation in the wilderness.

I don't think the "may" signifies uncertainty... I think it is a "may" of well-wishing. Like "May the good Lord bless you" - certainly we aren't thinking in our heads (but maybe He won't!) at the same time, right? But anybody know the original? sigh. how often I have to ask that.
 
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Edial

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Ringu said:
2 Edial
I really liked your post.
But I have a follow-up question -- what about verse 19 in that chapter? How's salvation ("eternal life") there connected to the good works? From the way it's phrased, it seems that "eternal life" is a result of good works.
Let's see the text again (NIV) -

1TI 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Once again, to take hold is to take charge of your salvation that you already have. This is what I said in my previous post -


"Taking hold of eternal life does not mean that you never had it, you just never "exercised" it. You never "walked" in it.
Many will be saved because they put their faith in Christ. However, they might never exercise that eternal life. Never walked in Christ".

There are other sections of my post that define taking a hold of the eternal life as means of exercising it.
If one does not take hold, he will still be saved, but not have "treasures" and not have realized his/her potentials fully.
Actually the Bible lists a fair amount of ineffective Christians.
And, as is expected, it urges us to be effective. There are rewards for that, which is a very reasonable proposition.

Thanks,
Ed



 
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shernren

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If one does not take hold, he will still be saved, but not have "treasures" and not have realized his/her potentials fully.

I agree. Do you mean this passage?

1 Cor 3:10-15: By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The ineffective Christian may be saved from hell, but what he is saved into may not be much to write home about though...
 
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JohnJones

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ringu said:
JohnJones
Good points, but in the story about prodigal son, the son is still the son, no matter if he is good or bad, no matter if he inherits all or zero, he's still going to be a son.

That's true, but he's a son without an inheritance. What is the inheritance that Christians have according to the Bible? Eternal life. So, if we lose our inheritance--we're still sons--but sons without eternal life.
 
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MrJim

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JohnJones said:
That's true, but he's a son without an inheritance. What is the inheritance that Christians have according to the Bible? Eternal life. So, if we lose our inheritance--we're still sons--but sons without eternal life.

So then the salvation/inheritance is forfeited...
 
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Trench777

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I cant do the quotation in a little box thing, so I'm just going to quote people who have replied.

To whoever said "eternal life can not mean anything but salvation"....um...no? If fact almost every single time eternal life is refered to in the NT, it is translated from the word "zoe" which does NOT mean salvation.

to the person who asked if the term in 1 Tim 6 (et. al.) was "zoe"...yes, it is.

Zoe
1:The state of one who is possesed with vitality or is animate.
2: of the absolute fulness of life, both ethical and essential.
2b: Life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous and devoted to God, blessed.

Do works guarantee salvation? Definately not.

Can we live "zoe" (a life active and vigorous and devoted to God, blessed)
without good works...in particular the works mentioned by Paul in the verses prior to !Tim6:19? I'd say vehemently NO.

"Laying hold of eternal zoe", knowing the definition of the real word used by the writer, makes all the difference in reading this verse, in my opinion.

Specifically...Paul is NOT talking about salvation, but about an active, vigorous life devoted to God, blessed.

T777
 
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Ringu

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JohnJones said:
That's true, but he's a son without an inheritance. What is the inheritance that Christians have according to the Bible? Eternal life. So, if we lose our inheritance--we're still sons--but sons without eternal life.
Is eternal life The only inheritance the passage is talking about? And would God send to hell someone He calls His son?

Trench777 said:
Specifically...Paul is NOT talking about salvation, but about an active, vigorous life devoted to God, blessed.
It sounds really interesting, it feels more like I tend to think about this passage. Can you mabe quote this passage in greek, so I could really know that the word Paul uses there is indeed "zoe"... then this would make sence to me, this passage. 'Cause if it does not talk about "eternal life" then the passage really makes sence, like I said in my first post, that it refers to the life of good works (as in Ephesians 2 - good works to which God has called us). But if it's indeed "eternal life" then the passage does not make much sence.
 
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Trench777

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Ringu said:
Can you mabe quote this passage in greek, so I could really know that the word Paul uses there is indeed "zoe"... then this would make sence to me, this passage. 'Cause if it does not talk about "eternal life" then the passage really makes sence, like I said in my first post, that it refers to the life of good works (as in Ephesians 2 - good works to which God has called us). But if it's indeed "eternal life" then the passage does not make much sence.

Well...ok. Remember you asked for it...

1TI 6:12 agwnizou ton kalon agwna thV pistewV epilabou thV aiwniou zwhV eiV hn eklhqhV kai wmologhsaV thn kalhn omologian enwpion pollwn marturwn

1TI 6:19 apoqhsaurizontaV eautoiV qemelion kalon eiV to mellon ina epilabwntai thV ontwV zwhV

Or if you prefer

1TI 6:12 ajgwnivzou to;n kalo;n ajgw'na th'ß pivstewß, ejpilabou' th'ß aijwnivou zwh'ß, eijß hJ;n ejklhvqhß kai; wJmolovghsaß th;n kalh;n oJmologivan ejnwvpion pollw'n martuvrwn.

1TI 6:19 ajpoqhsaurivzontaß eJautoi'ß qemevlion kalo;n eijß to; mevllon, i&na ejpilavbwntai th'ß o~ntwß zwh'ß.

Sorry, for some reason my comp won't copy/paste all of the letters of the Greek alphabet.

The Strong's Concordance number for the word used (the one in question in our discussion) in 1Tim6:12,19 is #2222, if you'd like to look it up yourself.

There is actually a 4th definition for the word, that I didnt mention as it makes no sense ("every living soul", is the definition I left out). You could use the other 2 definitions, and see if they "hold water" with you. They dont with me, personally, and I believe the "life" being refered to in 1Tim6 is the life defined by the 3rd definition. It rings true in my spirit when I read the passages.

Discern for yourself.

T777
 
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Trench777

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Ringu said:
Ok I found the word "zoi".
But why do we use the 3d definition, not the 1st?
Because same word "zoi" is used in other verses about "eternal life" (such as in John)

Perhaps you might want to look at those passages in John again, with new light, also...

Reading them with foreknowledge of what the words meant to the -writer- can help us tremendously as the readers. God blesses us with discernment.

T777
 
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Ringu

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Trench777 said:
Perhaps you might want to look at those passages in John again, with new light, also...

Reading them with foreknowledge of what the words meant to the -writer- can help us tremendously as the readers. God blesses us with discernment.
Well as I have studied meanings of this word, "zoe", I have a question - on which basis do you decide that in this passage aothor had in mind the meaning you quoted, "Life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous and devoted to God, blessed" and not any of the other ones?
 
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