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Pledge Unconstitutional

ZiSunka

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 In a 2-1 decision, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that reciting the phrase was a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state and amounted to government endorsing religion.

If it stands, the ruling means schoolchildren -- at least in the nine Western states covered by the court -- cannot recite the pledge, according to The Associated Press.

"The recitation that ours is a nation 'under God' is not a mere acknowledgement that many Americans believe in a deity. Nor is it merely descriptive of the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic. Rather, the phrase 'one nation under God' in the context of the pledge is normative," the court said in its decision.

"To recite the pledge is not to describe the United States; instead it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice and -- since 1954 -- monotheism."

The phrase was added in 1954 through legislation signed by President Eisenhower. The appeals court noted that Eisenhower wrote then that "millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."

Although no child is forced to say the pledge, the judges said any child whose personal or religious beliefs prevented him from reciting the pledge was left with the "unacceptable choice between participating and protesting."

The case had been filed against the United States, the U.S. Congress, California, and two school districts and its officials by Andrew Newdow, an atheist whose daughter attends public school in California.

The government said that the phrase "under God" had minimal religious content.

But the appeals court said that teachers having classrooms reciting the pledge did not pass the coercion test. The court also said that an atheist or a holder of certain non-Judeo-Christian beliefs could see it as an attempt to "enforce a `religious orthodoxy' of monotheism."

The three-judge panel was not unanimous in the ruling.

Circuit Judge Ferdinand Fernandez, who agreed with some elements of the decision but disagreed with the overall opinion, said phrases such as "under God" or "In God We Trust" have "no tendency to establish religion in this country," except in the eyes of those who "most fervently would like to drive all tincture of religion out of the public life of our polity."

"My reading of the stelliscript suggests that upon Newdow's theory of our Constitution, accepted by my colleagues today, we will soon find ourselves prohibited from using our album of patriotic songs in many public settings. 'God Bless America' and 'America the Beautiful' will be gone for sure, and while use of the first and second stanzas of the Star Spangled Banner will still be permissible, we will be precluded from straying into the third. And currency beware!" wrote Fernandez.

The 9th Circuit is the most liberal and the most overturned appeals court in the country.
 
Originally posted by VOW
I just caught that on the AP newswire.
WHAT A CROCK!
I wonder how much longer it will be before the Constitution is covered with Wite-Out? 

How is this a CROCK? It makes perfect sense to me. FREEDOM OF RELIGION, you know. :rolleyes:

 
 
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Originally posted by VOW
I just caught that on the AP newswire.

WHAT A CROCK!

I wonder how much longer it will be before the Constitution is covered with Wite-Out?



Peace,
~VOW

Obviously, my atheist pals and I were overjoyed.


Why is it a crock? Where exactly does it say in the Constitution that the United States is a Christian country? (hint: it doesn't.)

Yes, I know you Christians have had a good thing going, and I can see why you're upset. A lot of men were upset when women were allowed to vote, and a lot of white folks were upset when the slaves were freed. Doesn't mean that it was wrong to let women vote or free the slaves, does it?

The status quo is only good when it happens to serve the side your on. But try looking at it from a non-Christian's point of view.

As an atheist, I can't tell you how offensive that pledge was to me. Why should a child who is an atheist, or a buddhist, or a taoist, or a hindu, or a mulsim, or a shamanist, or a wiccan have to make a pledge to the Christian God?

How would you feel if the pledge were retained, but the word "God" was changed to "Buddha"? Wouldn't you feel offended? Wouldn't you chafe every time you were forced to recite it, or have your children recite it?

The United States is not a Christian nation. England was, and that's why we declared our independence. We wanted a place that people could believe as they wanted and not be persecuted by the government, like the Puritans were in England. How ironic it is, then, that we have such intolerance for other beliefs.

Think I'm wrong? Try this: for one month, have you and your family say my revised Pledge of Allegiance with the "one nation, under Buddha" in it every day.

Just for one month.

If it bothers you even in the least, then you'll understand a little about how non-Christians feel in this country sometime.

We don't care if you worship the Christian God; just don't try to force us into doing so too. That is what's unconstitutional.

   Jeff

 
 
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
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kern

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The "under god" has only been in the Pledge since 1954. I applaud the court for their decision and hope others follow in their example.

And to the other Christians posting on these threads: Do you care about religious freedom at all? I suppose I understand if you don't, but it's hypocrisy to use the religious freedom to mean "Christian dominance". If the pledge said "one nation, under Allah" or "one nation, under Buddha"? I doubt you would react the same way.

-Chris
 
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The problem is......where does it stop?

Do we need new monetary?

Can't play religious themed music in public events such as July 4th celebrations?

Can't even speak about religion in public anymore?

Can't have a sign outside your store advertising Christian books?

Can't have "the Holy Bible" written on a book anymore?

If its offensive, get over it. Seriously.

People find daisey-dukes (shorts) offensive too. Why don't we make a law just for those people?

The fact that our constitution states the word "religion" is recognizing religion exists so why don't we just burn the constitution altogether?

 

Lets just get rid of crossing streets since it can look like a crucifix from above.
 
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Originally posted by the worthy one
The problem is......where does it stop?
Do we need new monetary?
Can't play religious themed music in public events such as July 4th celebrations?
Can't even speak about religion in public anymore?
Can't have a sign outside your store advertising Christian books?
Can't have "the Holy Bible" written on a book anymore?
If its offensive, get over it. Seriously.
People find daisey-dukes (shorts) offensive too. Why don't we make a law just for those people?
The fact that our constitution states the word "religion" is recognizing religion exists so why don't we just burn the constitution altogether?

 

You can't force someone else to agree with your religion. That's where it stops. You can have your Bible and talk about religion. People can wear daisy-dukes but they can't force me to wear them. Get it?

We're not complaining about it being offensive. We're complaining about the fact that we're forced to pledge to a religion we don't believe it!!
 
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Originally posted by kern
The "under god" has only been in the Pledge since 1954. I applaud the court for their decision and hope others follow in their example.

And to the other Christians posting on these threads: Do you care about religious freedom at all? I suppose I understand if you don't, but it's hypocrisy to use the religious freedom to mean "Christian dominance". If the pledge said "one nation, under Allah" or "one nation, under Buddha"? I doubt you would react the same way.

-Chris

Yes, unfortunately, what most people seem to mean is, "You are free to practice our religion."

I'm reminded of statements by Falwell ("This is a Christian nation") and by former President Bush, who stated that he felt atheists shouldn't be permitted to be citizens.

So much for our wonderful country where all beliefs are treated with equal respect.

    Jeff

 

 

 
 
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Blackhawk

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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Okay so if we want to be sticklers this says that Congress can't make a law that establishes religion. But what about state congresses? I ask this because that is what the signers of the constitution did. many wrote state constitutions that we re full of religous references.
 
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VOW

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To All:

Where did you get the idea that the US was not a "Christian" nation? The Puritans sure didn't want to see anyone or anything other than God worshipped here in the "Colonies." Remember the Salem Witch Trials? The war with England was over TAXES, not worship!

I thought God was mentioned somewhere in the Constitution, or the Preamble. It's been more than a few years since my Civics class, LOL. But the good folks who wrote the Constitution were sitting in Church every Sunday, folks. Don't let the First Amendment fool you. I'm sure Tom and George and the rest of the guys would have wet their pants at the thought of a Satanist or a Hindu having his day in the courts of the United States of America. Goodness, those fine people used their Bibles to beat over the heads of their slaves and of the Native American tribes. Manifest Destiny and all that garbage, you know.

Read over that First Amendment again. It says that Congress won't IMPOSE a State religion. Saying "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance isn't a State Religion, not by any means. Besides, most of the radicals aren't even saying the Pledge to begin with!

This "no State Religion" BS is going to be pushed to the wall, to the point where it means no RELIGION, PERIOD.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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supermagdalena

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Do we change everything around that's been in our country for hundreds of years because a few are offended by two words?  We'd have to change our coins...our dollars...nearly all the songs about America.

Hm, this is going to take a lot of work. 

Let'm say Allah, or Buddha, or whatever instead of God.  Don't outlaw our pledge.  They're not being forced to say it.

~Emily~
 
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marathoner

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I wonder how much further they can go before Christians beging to think that this country might not be worth dying for in a war anymore. It is scary. I fly my flag on my porch but I wonder if there will be a day when Christianity is made illegal in the U.S.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by supermagdalena
Do we change everything around that's been in our country for hundreds of years because a few are offended by two words?  

Of course not!  The "under god" has only been in the pledge since the 1950's, and the "in god we trust" on the coin is also from that decade.

 

-Chris
 
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The problem is......where does it stop?
Do we need new monetary?
Can't play religious themed music in public events such as July 4th celebrations?
Can't even speak about religion in public anymore?
Can't have a sign outside your store advertising Christian books?
Can't have "the Holy Bible" written on a book anymore?
If its offensive, get over it. Seriously.
People find daisey-dukes (shorts) offensive too. Why don't we make a law just for those people?
The fact that our constitution states the word "religion" is recognizing religion exists so why don't we just burn the constitution altogether?






Mallory, I'm glad you quoted this message, since this guy's on my Ignore list.

WO, you ask "where does it stop?"

Answer: It stops when this country stops favoring one religion over another.

Yes, we should change our currency. "In God We Trust", like "One Nation Under God", is a relatively new addition, anyway. It used to be "In Pluribus Unum": from many there is unity.

Nobody ever said that the Constitution is anti-religious. What it says is that religion shall be held separate from our government, and that all religions are granted equal freedom.

See, you guys are looking at this revised pledge as some sort of infringement of your rights. It's not. You can go on saying the old Pledge of Allegiance as much as you like. There's no law against that.

What it's saying is that you can't force people to say it, nor can a public school endorse it in any way.

Like I said, it's gotta be a bitter pill for the Christians to swallow. "Darnit, we had it so good here before," a number of them must be saying right now.  "And now we can't force them wretched infidels to say our Pledge to our god; that's so unfair!"

   Jeff

 
 
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Originally posted by marathoner
I wonder how much further they can go before Christians beging to think that this country might not be worth dying for in a war anymore. It is scary. I fly my flag on my porch but I wonder if there will be a day when Christianity is made illegal in the U.S.

Marathoner,

Of course not. The Constitution protects freedom of religion. That's what this whole thing is all about. Christians do not have the right to prohibit non-Christians, but neither do non-Christians have the right to prohibit Christianity.

That's the idea.

And wow, wouldn't that be terrible if all these people decide to stop going to war. The peace that would result would be such a tragedy. :p

  Jeff

 
 
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D. Scarlatti

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Originally posted by Blackhawk
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Okay so if we want to be sticklers this says that Congress can't make a law that establishes religion.

"Respecting an establishment of religion."

But what about state congresses?

Read the XIVth Amendment. It applies the U.S. Constitution to state and local governments.

Civics lessons are in order all around on these threads.

 
 
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