Please Review: New Statement of Purpose

[All4Christ]

Perhaps rather than mentioning just the early church you could say "and other historical sources of Christian theology and practice." And in "These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, etc." you might add "classic confessions of the faith."

That's for traditional Orotestants. I need to think more about mainline.

What denominations do you have in mind when you say mainline Protestant? It seems like what you added pretty much covers Traditional Christians, including Traditional Protestants. (I wasn't here when the group originally came up with TT, so I'm not 100% sure which denominations / groups were intended to be the regulars of Traditional Theology.)

I looked it up on Wikipedia - and it looks like mainstream Protestant covers a very wide range of denominations (pretty much everyone other than evangelical / charismatic groups).

 

[topcare]

I looked it up on Wikipedia - and it looks like mainstream Protestant covers a very wide range of denominations (pretty much everyone other than evangelical / charismatic groups).

It makes me wonder why even have TT here if we let everyone in, we have GT for that.

 

[Anhelyna]

But the 'attitude' here is intended to be different .

Elsewhere folk may argue , debate etc but here we emphasise , or try to , that we discuss , talk , listen to each other and are respectful of each others' beliefs.

We need to be a bit more 'pushy' about the discussion not argue/debate side of it.

 

[topcare]

That I understand but it would be nice to have a place to go to get away from other places here. I do not have a home here and it would be nice just to come some place on the forums without all the noise. OBOB is getting trimmed down which was where I hung out. It seems like we are second class citizens here

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Perhaps rather than mentioning just the early church you could say "and other historical sources of Christian theology and practice." And in "These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, etc." you might add "classic confessions of the faith."

That's for traditional Orotestants. I need to think more about mainline.

Hedrick,

Than you, this is a great addition and does add additional clarification; I have added it:

Definition of Traditional Christianity:

Traditional Christians hold to the traditional beliefs and customs of the early church that Jesus Christ established and believe they should be acknowledged and used in the development of the Church today. Traditional Christians believe that the Church and associated Tradition - especially from the Apostolic / early Church - guide us even today. These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, classic confessions of the faith, etc. Many traditional Christians believe that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God, commonly known as theosis or sanctification. Traditional Christians recognize a variety of sacraments and sacramental acts including, but not limited to; Baptism, Holy Communion (Eucharist), Confession and Absolution, Chrismation (confirmation) etc., and consider them to be additional means whereby God imparts His grace on those who have faith.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That I understand but it would be nice to have a place to go to get away from other places here. I do not have a home here and it would be nice just to come some place on the forums without all the noise. OBOB is getting trimmed down which was where I hung out. It seems like we are second class citizens here

Topcare, I think "second class" is a bit unfair. From my POV, TT is the place for the "premier" members to hang out. I'm Lutheran, my home forum is TCL, yet besides my time devoted to staff stuff, this is were I hang out most. When I visit congregational forums, of which I'm not a member, I am generally welcomed and treated with respect, but I know that I can not always freely express my theological opinions. Here we can. We are free to explore, discuss in the context of our own beliefs.

But the 'attitude' here is intended to be different .

Elsewhere folk may argue , debate etc but here we emphasise , or try to , that we discuss , talk , listen to each other and are respectful of each others' beliefs.

We need to be a bit more 'pushy' about the discussion not argue/debate side of it.

It's kind of a haven for all of us.

 

[All4Christ]

Topcare, I think "second class" is a bit unfair. From my POV, TT is the place for the "premier" members to hang out. I'm Lutheran, my home forum is TCL, yet besides my time devoted to staff stuff, this is were I hang out most. When I visit congregational forums, of which I'm not a member, I am generally welcomed and treated with respect, but I know that I can not always freely express my theological opinions. Here we can. We are free to explore, discuss in the context of our own beliefs.



It's kind of a haven for all of us.

Are those who are non-Traditional allowed to promote non-Traditional beliefs then? Just respectfully? If it was designed for both Traditional Christians and mainstream?

Many mainstream Christians are very non-Traditional in beliefs. In fact, some non-mainstream churches can be more traditional then some mainstream churches. For example - Anabaptists aren't mainstream, but they are very traditional in some beliefs, whereas Baptists are often less Traditional than Anabaptists.

Often - the OP topics themselves lend themselves to non-Traditional oriented threads (for example, where the OP tries to ask for no traditional sources of theology to be used in discussion). People are often respectful, but still promote things way outside the realm of Traditional theology.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Are those who are non-Traditional allowed to promote non-Traditional beliefs then? Just respectfully? If it was designed for both Traditional Christians and mainstream?

Many mainstream Christians are very non-Traditional in beliefs. In fact, some non-mainstream churches can be more traditional then some mainstream churches. For example - Anabaptists aren't mainstream, but they are very traditional in some beliefs, whereas Baptists are often less Traditional than Anabaptists.

In a word, no; they can however explore traditional beliefs in the context of their own. For instance, a person can say I can not agree with x because I believe y; they can not say you are wrong about x because of y.

In my geographic area, Anabaptists would be be considered "main stream", and I agree that many of their beliefs are Traditional. Certainly we may not think about it, but the most ancient tradition in Christianity is Messianic Judaism; most would only consider Eastern and Western forms, yet all these originate from the Apostles and Jesus Christ, yet MJ Christians are rarely viewed as either traditional or main-stream.

Christian Traditions are diverse.

 

[All4Christ]

In a word, no; they can however explore traditional beliefs in the context of their own. For instance, a person can say I can not agree with x because I believe y; they can not say you are wrong about x because of y.

In my geographic area, Anabaptists would be be considered "main stream", and I agree that many of their beliefs are Traditional. Certainly we may not think about it, but the most ancient tradition in Christianity is Messianic Judaism; most would only consider Eastern and Western forms, yet all these originate from the Apostles and Jesus Christ, yet MJ Christians are rarely viewed as either traditional or main-stream.

Christian Traditions are diverse.

I'm still mulling over the first part, and will write about that later.

In regards to the second part - I would say rather that Jewish Christianity (or Jews who follow Christ) is an ancient tradition from the time of the apostles. Messianic Judaism's current form is a movement from the mid-1900s, though the general movement started in the 1800s. I don't say this to offend - I have family that are Messianic Jews, and I have great appreciation for their perspective. However, the modern movement "Messianic Jews" with many of its current beliefs did not start from the time of the apostles. Perhaps they are working to revive the earlier movements of Jewish Christians.

I agree that exploring their traditions pulled from their Jewish Christian heritage could be beneficial, as some of their traditions certainly do reach back to the earliest times of the church. With that in mind, I'd agree that the Jewish believers themselves may be considered traditional Christians.

In fact, discussing the differences and similarities between the Nazarenes (4th century), Ebionites and modern Messianic Judaism would be an interesting topic, though perhaps not appropriate for this forum.

For anyone interested, that is not familiar with those groups: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)

 

[hedrick]

Mainline is a list of about 7 denominations. Generally they're the largest groups going back to the major Reformers: PCUSA, RCA, ELCA, Methodists, and a few others. They're a mix of traditional and non-traditional. They tend to use traditional worship, to be knowledgeable about and care about historical beliefs and practices, but they also use the results of historical criticism and modern theology. I think of N T Wright as an example. He's a fairly traditional Anglican, but his Christology is non-traditional, because it's based on current NT scholarship. There's not a lot of difference between mainline and Catholic Biblical scholarship, but mainline Protestantism has made use of the results in its official theology more aggressively than Catholics.

 

[All4Christ]

Mainline is a list of about 7 denominations. Generally they're the largest groups going back to the major Reformers: PCUSA, RCA, ELCA, Methodists, and a few others. They're a mix of traditional and non-traditional. They tend to use traditional worship, to be knowledgeable about and care about historical beliefs and practices, but they also use the results of historical criticism and modern theology. I think of N T Wright as an example. He's a fairly traditional Anglican, but his Christology is non-traditional, because it's based on current NT scholarship. There's not a lot of difference between mainline and Catholic Biblical scholarship, but mainline Protestantism has made use of the results in its official theology more aggressively than Catholics.

Thank you!

 

[topcare]

Topcare, I think "second class" is a bit unfair. From my POV, TT is the place for the "premier" members to hang out. I'm Lutheran, my home forum is TCL, yet besides my time devoted to staff stuff, this is were I hang out most. When I visit congregational forums, of which I'm not a member, I am generally welcomed and treated with respect, but I know that I can not always freely express my theological opinions. Here we can. We are free to explore, discuss in the context of our own beliefs.

I am not talking about here, but overall I get a bad vibe from TPTB higher ups and get the feeling of second class citizen that they are trying to silence certain member groups like OBOB with closing of whole forums it takes out places I can go. It has quite upset me to the point of some depression than they are changing this place too, I don't understand why they just don't leave things alone instead of breaking things and upsetting the apple cart. With the exception of you I get the feeling that the higher ups don't care about some members and makes me want to leave altogether.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am not talking about here, but overall I get a bad vibe from TPTB higher ups and get the feeling of second class citizen that they are trying to silence certain member groups like OBOB with closing of whole forums it takes out places I can go. It has quite upset me to the point of some depression than they are changing this place too, I don't understand why they just don't leave things alone instead of breaking things and upsetting the apple cart. With the exception of you I get the feeling that the higher ups don't care about some members and makes me want to leave altogether.

Thanks for the kind words, and I do assure you that these decisions are not made arbitrarily, but only after much thought and investigation. Since we are talking specifically about this forum, there were some instances in the past where people were posting in here not in the spirit in which we intended for this forum. Those who post here regularly some who were part of the formation of the Traditional Theology forum and were noticing the hostile nature and intent of some of the posts. This was drawn to our attention and we felt that additional clarification would be a benefit to TT. Not only making it clearer to visitors what is acceptable behavior, but making it easier for our regular members to discern if something should be reported. Likewise, it adds clarification for staff members who have to review reports and hear appeals (many of whom have a limited understanding of historic traditional theology and it's practices).

We don't want to exclude anyone who wishes to post or inquire here in the spirit of respect; but we don't want to open it up as a shooting gallery for those who reject all things catholic, orthodox, traditional, and historic.

It is a real balancing act; and we don't always get it right, but it's not for a sincere lack of trying. This is the main reason why we have we have these discussion threads.

You mentioned other forums; please feel free to start a thread in the MSC; our ears are open, and we do appreciate feed-back and input. If you are more comfortable talking to me than others, just put my name in the title, and we can include others staff members as required.

This goes for everyone.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We would like the feedback and input from the members of this forum on the new SoP that we have written up. Please review this new SoP and let us know if you have any questions or concerns. If you think it's great...you can let us know that as well.

I have noticed that there are folks who think they are 'traditional' Christians who are perhaps more 'conservative' in that they are more fundamentalist or evangelical than the mainstream fellows. For example, 'traditional' Adventists rather than those Adventists who don't follow the way it was 50 or more years ago. Traditional non-denominationals who who like that old-time religion. All good people who think of themselves as 'traditional' in some way but they don't read the Fathers, they don't say the Creeds, would be freaked out by the Hail Mary, are sure they are against liturgy, would never accept a bishop. I think the new SOP helps, but then who reads SOPs? I think there needs to be an expectation that gentle live reminders will always be needed.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have noticed that there are folks who think they are 'traditional' Christians who are perhaps more 'conservative' in that they are more fundamentalist or evangelical than the mainstream fellows. For example, 'traditional' Adventists rather than those Adventists who don't follow the way it was 50 or more years ago. Traditional non-denominationals who who like that old-time religion. All good people who think of themselves as 'traditional' in some way but they don't read the Fathers, they don't say the Creeds, would be freaked out by the Hail Mary, are sure they are against liturgy, would never accept a bishop. I think the new SOP helps, but then who reads SOPs? I think there needs to be an expectation that gentle live reminders will always be needed.

Chevyontheriver, you are correct. As Christians, we are compelled to always provide "gentle reminders", and this is one of the foundations of Traditional Theology:

The Six Principles of the Traditional Theology Forum:

• We hold each other up, supporting each other in discussion, and keep each other true to Theological principles.
• We promise to discuss honourably and in true fairness to all, even those we disagree with; no matter our theological differences.
• We decry ad hominem arguments; we will strive to never use them nor flame in return when attacked. We will debate fairly and respectfully at all times when others engage in them.
• This is a topic driven forum to bridge open discussion for those interested in all the ways traditional theology is expressed and lived around the world. Its not meant to exclude those who don't practice traditional theology, but it is meant to be topic restrictive and non combative to traditional ideas and structure.
• If you need to prove traditional theology as unbiblical or incomplete, we respect your right to do this in the General Theology forum and not in this topical forum. This is a place to explore within the defined topic not debate against it.
• We also help educate each other, to ensure we ourselves stay true to and better defend orthodox, timeless Christianity.

• We include all who wish to join, who can follow these stipulations.

If they don't read the SoP, and they post off topic to the forum, they get reported, we can move the post (one was moved just this past week), providing it is suitable to another forum. The poster will be contacted and told why. If they persist, we can elevate the level of action.

Having more clarity does indeed, as you say help out.

Mark

 

[All4Christ]

Chevyontheriver, you are correct. As Christians, we are compelled to always provide "gentle reminders", and this is one of the foundations of Traditional Theology:



If they don't read the SoP, and they post off topic to the forum, they get reported, we can move the post (one was moved just this past week), providing it is suitable to another forum. The poster will be contacted and told why. If they persist, we can elevate the level of action.

Having more clarity does indeed, as you say help out.

Mark

If we report the post, and it seems like a genuine mistake by the poster, not intentional - do they get a severe warning / mark against their record? Or is there some discretion allowed by the staff?

 

[All4Christ]

I have noticed that there are folks who think they are 'traditional' Christians who are perhaps more 'conservative' in that they are more fundamentalist or evangelical than the mainstream fellows. For example, 'traditional' Adventists rather than those Adventists who don't follow the way it was 50 or more years ago. Traditional non-denominationals who who like that old-time religion. All good people who think of themselves as 'traditional' in some way but they don't read the Fathers, they don't say the Creeds, would be freaked out by the Hail Mary, are sure they are against liturgy, would never accept a bishop. I think the new SOP helps, but then who reads SOPs? I think there needs to be an expectation that gentle live reminders will always be needed.

Another issue is the new forum home page. The links to featured threads don't show which forum the threads are posted in, nor does it give people easy access to the SoP.

An example: there was an influx of way out there, very heterodox, posts in a recent thread on TT. I looked at the front page, and sure enough that thread was one of the featured threads on the homepage.

I really think it contributes to this problem. It does give more visibility to posts, and may increase activity. However, it also lessens the visibility of forum specific restrictions. People see a topic title they are interested and post. It's confusing, especially for new members. If I ever use that new homepage feature, I have to make a point to step back, look at the top of the screen and determine the thread's location.

I know it is possible to have some indication of the subforum location, as LDS threads have a little badge on them. I'm not sure why they don't do that for all threads.

 

[dms1972]

[Edit - I can now understand a little more why people want the forum somewhat apart from General Theology]

'Holding each other true to theological principles'.

But whose 'theological principles' and based on what authority?

Do you mean by 'holding each other true to theological principles', fellow christians within each tradition or group keeping each other from erring according to that tradition?

Each traditional group could articulate and explain to the others the theological principles behind their tradition with its worship and meeting for fellowship. This sort of thing is normally done with people in small numbers with only those interested for instance if you invite someone to your church. Doing it on an internet forum is more problematic.

Could these sorts questions not be asked in the already existing community forums?

Unless you simply permitted moderated questions; to give an example "what are the theological principles behind the use of water in baptism in [name of tradition]" and allow one or two people of that tradition to answer those sorts of questions from people genuinely seeking to understand a tradition rather than argue with it. These sorts of question are best answered in conjunction with recognised sources of theology from that tradition.

 

[All4Christ]

I find both the terms 'mainline' and 'traditional' problematic in regard to theology - when talking about tradition are we not talking mostly about forms of worship - hymns, psalms, use of musical instruments, incense, icons etc?

No, what you are describing is Traditional worship, though Traditional theology tends to go hand in hand with Traditional worship. Take a look at our definition again:

Definition of Traditional Christianity:

Traditional Christians hold to the traditional beliefs and customs of the early church that Jesus Christ established and believe they should be acknowledged and used in the development of the Church today. Traditional Christians believe that the Church and associated Tradition - especially from the Apostolic / early Church - guide us even today. These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, classic confessions of the faith, etc. Many traditional Christians believe that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God, commonly known as theosis or sanctification. Traditional Christians recognize a variety of sacraments and sacramental acts including, but not limited to; Baptism, Holy Communion (Eucharist), Confession and Absolution, Chrismation (confirmation) etc., and consider them to be additional means whereby God imparts His grace on those who have faith.

Traditional theology refers to the method that theology is determined, the sources used for theology, the influence of Tradition / history with theology, and the retention of Traditional theology and teachings, as defined above. I'm on my way out the door, so I apologize if this isn't clear.

I believe your interpretation of the word Traditional is typical - which is why this SoP is important.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If we report the post, and it seems like a genuine mistake by the poster, not intentional - do they get a severe warning / mark against their record? Or is there some discretion allowed by the staff?

There is always discretion by staff. Should moderators make an error though, members are welcome to, appeal in the MSC (there is always a link to the MSC provided in a warning/ban etc.) and we always review with charity and mercy. Now if a member keeps doing this over and over, and with malice, that's a different story.