PLEASE! lets settle the issue,the final demon thread!

[EternalSummer]

I think this thread is quite bizarre because 'possession' isn't even used in the Bible, 'demonized' is, so it's not even a valid question that is being asked.

Yet in every instance the word "demonized" gets used, it speaks of a situation where the demons are considered to be located INSIDE the person -- not outside harassing them. They need to be cast OUT, not merely "driven away". So maybe that has something to do with it?

Possession in English means either ownership and/or occupancy. Ownership would not be the issue here. Christ's death on the Cross technically "purchases" ALL human souls for Himself. Whether believer or unbeliever, by His shed blood, all humanity belongs to HIM. The issue would, rather, be one of occupancy. Who is living where (or inside whom). Squatters occupy a house; this does not mean they own it, but it does mean they will live there until a stronger power or authority forces them out.

 

[icarusforde]

however, this raises another very interesting point to me.

someone before mentioned the fact that people in their church had demons cast out. Now, assuming these people were spirit fillled christians who had back slidden for the sake of this argument, and they had then come back to walk daily with jesus.

Now, when they come back, do the demons have to be cast out or are they sent away by the re-acceptance of christ as lord over your life?

Something that has been puzzling me...

 

[EternalSummer]

Well, getting back to the recognition that an affliction is an affliction is an affliction, and an infection is an infection is an infection ... you might as well ask if someone developed diabetes or cancer while away from Christ whether coming to Christ would make that automatically disappear (be healed) or whether they would still have to go to doctors and take medicine, or even whether they would still have to have a special season of anointing and prayer by the elders (as recommended in the book of James) for healing.

I'd venture to guess all three could be possible, and it depends on how the Lord wants to handle the situation. That He is more than able to handle it -- whether that means healing or simply grace to bear up under it -- and that being back in His arms is definitely the best place to be no matter what we face, is beyond dispute. Right?

 

[icarusforde]

and that being back in His arms is definitely the best place to be no matter what we face, is beyond dispute

Oh man, there is no denying that. No matter what, God's arms = Home... Warm, cuddly and all covering.

Sounds like a really large blanket if I put them like that.

But yeah, i think thats pretty much the sum of what i was thinking. God can handle it really.

I have to say, this is one of the most engaging conversations that i have had at 11pm on a monday night... makes a change from algebra notes!

keep it coming, its good stuff people.

 

[pinetree]

You see, this would be precisely the caliber of response you have been offering whenever someone brings up a viable point to discuss. You dismiss and invalidate it out of hand and act as if it is irrelevant. On top of that you post insulting images, crack insulting jokes, and make insulting snotty comments at anyone who disagrees with you. Y'know, those who have the actual courage of their convictions rarely, if ever, resort to lowbrow techniques of social engineering -- mocking those who disagree with their POV -- as a method of trying to "win" their position in a debate. Those who do resort to such methods generally get dismissed as obviously not caring enough about whatever they seek to "teach" to be bothered communicating in a way that encourages listening rather than pushes emotional buttons. If you are going to behave this way every time people bring points on topic or scriptures or both to discuss the matter, it's no wonder you don't get any "real" discussion. You don't invite any; you actively try to squelch it before it gets started.

And frankly, I don't appreciate being treated that way. I'm not a superstitious idiot who buys into every cheesy theory and emotional excess that the three-ring-circus of modern so-called "deliverance ministries" buys into and fosters. I agree a lot of nonsense flies around out there. I agree it does a lot of damage and rather than helping people, it has the potential to harm them further. There's a lot of unscrupulous nonsense out there, yes, agreed, point made, point taken, point never had a problem with. But when you and Cassidy and Optimax start kicking people around (myself or others) by lumping us in with that lot from the get-go and dumping on us the scorn you ought to rightfully reserve for them instead, just because we recognize that demonization can happen to anyone? It's you shutting down dialogue there, Bro. Nobody else. Just you.

Take care. When you want to discuss things like an adult instead of like a child stamping your feet determined not only to get your way but to punish anyone who dares ask you for the mere consideration of allowing others to hold their own views, maybe we'll talk again. Until then, you seriously come across as just trolling. God have mercy on you, because it sure appears you really don't know what you're doing.

Actually this is a classic example of one of YOUR long personal ,unscriptural,emotional posts.

 

[pinetree]

I think this thread is quite bizarre because 'possession' isn't even used in the Bible, 'demonized' is, so it's not even a valid question that is being asked. If you know that difference then it helps understand more.

What you might not realize is what started this thread,is the fact that teachings were coming forth here on the forum,teaching that spirit filled believers,can be ..INHABITED,POSSED,OR "ENTERED".Those were the very words.

It was also being taught that copper bracelets kept demons away.

Demons entered through organ transplants.

Demons travel through radio waves,then with the implication of cell phone use,:o

PS,a word of caution,dont eat hot dogs ,they have organ meat in them...

 

[pinetree]

Seth: not to attack you or anything, but he had a valid point in dismissing this. Like he said, Mary was not a spirit filled believer, which means that yes, there could have been demons possessing her before she came to Christ.

However, the point of this thread (or so i think) is to debate whether Spirit Filled Christians can be possessed with demons. We know that non christians can, but the question remains, can Christians be possessed?

Thats my take on the post anyway.

My position on this whole thing: I would say no, they cannot be possessed. Some of my reasoning would be thus: Dardness cannot be in the same place as light. Satan is darkness, his demonic hordes are darkness, and God, The Holy Spirit, Jesus and his angels are light. If we go with this theory, and you are spirit filled, then dark (satan) cannot reside in the light (God) which you have within you thanks the the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.

Thats just my opinionl.

Yes,you are correct!
The bible is filled with the exact opposite,of Christian inhabitation,possession,or being "entered.

We are temples of God,children of lifgt,a royal priesthood,a holy nation,etc..

Paul took the time to teach obut head coverings and such,but never took the time to talk about Christian inhabitation,,,

Hmmmmm,I wonder why?..

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST!

The flesh can be very powerful,and so can long lost emotions.

Look at this list here,to see what Paul said.

Notice the things the flesh is capable of..

Fits of rage! (that could look demonic)

In the deliverance ministry camp,when those manifestations of the flesh appear,thet person who displays such actions,then get misdiagnosed..

Look at that..sorcery! That can appear to be inhabitation,but Paul says it is the flesh,pure and simple...

It is the flesh run amuck!

Galatians 5:19-20

19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry,sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Colossians 3:5
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

 

[EternalSummer]

So you are basically saying that a born-again, Spirit-filled Christian cannot be "inhabited" by demons ... but CAN exhibit fits of rage and dabble in sorcery?

Look Bro you know I respect your right to hold a separate view from my own and all that, but dude? That is just WHACK. I think we should start a new thread which seriously questions the "born again" and "spirit-filled" status of Christians -- and let's toss the "Christian" status on there as well while we're at it!! -- who go around sowing strife, bickering for supremacy, having temper tantrums, and above all, dabbling in sorcery. I think that would make a far more pressing and compelling question. Direct demonization is still relatively rare, all things considered, and thus directly concerns only a certain number of us. But the flesh is with us every day and demands the attention of us all. Right?

 

[Always in His Presence]

So you are basically saying that a born-again, Spirit-filled Christian cannot be "inhabited" by demons ... but CAN exhibit fits of rage and dabble in sorcery?

What does the Word call fits of rage and "dabbling" in sorcery?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, envy, murders, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

​

So, the scriptural answer to your question is YES, Born Again Spirit filled Christians can indeed exhibit fits of rage and dabble in sorcery and the Bible calls it a work of the flesh - NOT demonic possession, oppression, inhabitation, influence or anything else.

​

 

[FoundInGrace]

I think that is what is most scary, some very sincere believers have problems that are not just their flesh, there is a spiritual element to it and when it is put down to only being the flesh by so many, it only compounds the problem that they can't get rid of or overcome.

I agree with not seeing demons everywhere, absolutely discernment is a lacking skill in some 'Christian' circles but it is wrong also to ignore that demons can and will oppress bit by bit if you let them, they are not friendly (unless that is to entice you into something you can't get out of later). Where believers have a lack of knowledge or are willingly ignoring the cautions of the Holy Spirit it's asking for trouble. The devil prowls round like a raging lion waiting to devour.. God protects us more than we realise but that doesn't mean lusts of all kinds leading to addictions of all kinds doesn't happen in believers and telling them it's just the flesh is not going to free them.

Again discernment is so important. Thank God He gifts and calls people to help those in the church who are needing help to gain freedom from what the rest of the church has called a flesh problem.

 

[Cassidy]

That is a very valid concern, Cassidy; and one of the only reasons some of us have bothered to stick it out on this thread for so long! If indeed telling Christians that they have a demon does make the matters worse, when instead they should be learning about their position in Christ, then we really should pursue that course of action instead. And there are many many cases where doing just that is all it takes to overcome!

Most certainly.

I don't exactly know why though, but there are other cases where a simple pep talk doesn't do the trick. Either the person is professing to be a Christian but isn't really, they have backslidden to the point of having been turned over to Satan, or demons really do find a way to attach themselves to believers. Whichever the case, the solution is spelled out for us right there in scripture. "Submit yourselves therefore unto God, resist the Devil and he will flee from you."

I don't believe that even a backslider can be given over to the devil either. Sure the devil who has tempted them thus far...just keeps on tempting and lying to them. Once they have backslidden and not even walking in the spirit at all at any point...I think that gives free reign for the Devil to continue in his lies. And because the backslider is doing nothing to fight him...then the lies continue and the backslider gets deeper and deeper into sin. But remember what Christ said about those who go astray though? We musn't forget this either though.

How does it work? Perhaps in the submitting to God part they reactivate their position in Christ. Or perhaps in the commanding of the demons to leave they simply realize their authority they've had all along and wrestle themselves free. Deliverance ministry isn't an exact science, at least not in my experience. But it is about applying the Word of God to the situation at hand, and leaning on the Lord to accomplish that which we are powerless to do without Him.

I think it's the last part. Applying the word of God. This is not a simple pep talk. I believe in affirmations. I believe in meditating on the word and saying out loud what God says about his children. And in hearing yourself say it....then you can actually start believing. The truth...starts to squelch the lies as you start speaking them out. Satan has no power over the truth. For me? I taped these affirmations all over my house and said them everytime I saw them. And it was amazing the peace that came and how I actually started learning and knowing who I am in Christ. SO MUCH SO....that in the 7 years since I was 'oppressed' enough and in need of affirming the word in my life...I have never wavered since! Not once!

In fact, my view of the Deliverance ministry is similar to the one many see in the apostle Andrew. Andrew brought people to Jesus. That's all it is in a nutshell. A deliverance minister brings people in need to Jesus, who is the only one capable of releasing them from their bonds. How He does it exactly, is not something we necessarily need to know.

I know...the truth! Pure and simple!

If you've got a problem -- let me introduce you to the One I know who can take care of it. Problem solved!

Yes!!

Don't let Pinetree confuse you, as he sits back in his easy-chair of inexperience and criticizes a ministry he obviously knows nothing about! While the scriptures he's posted are valuable, and can help some of us modify our course of action when dealing with these things; his conclusions and assumption about what they mean are often times quite ridiculous! He is definitely not an authority on the subject, and his attitude has chased away almost everyone who has anything valuable to say on the matter. The truth of the scriptures is not going to be found through secular debating techniques, where we chose sides and throw one liners at each other until one side is voted the winner. No, Jesus said that the truth is found by those who seek for it.

Oh I'm not confused...and I believe that Pinetree has probably been in the same boat I have...gone, through hardship, affliction etc Been up down and around and around...and probably more so...which is how he can know who he is in Christ also! He may not know all there is to know about this 'deliverance ministry' thing...but he knows the word. No confusion there whatsoever!

 

[Cassidy]

Just to clarify ... I, Seth Alexander, am not in any "situation" here. I don't have an axe to grind, just a heart for those who were meant to walk in the Spirit and taste the abundant life who have been crippled, maimed, wounded, brought down, taken hostage, taken captive, and imprisoned in this spiritual war we all find ourselves in.

'You' was a generalisation, friend, no need to be defensive!

But I understand for those not on the front lines, for whom the battle gets fought on paper only or through mental assent, it can be very difficult indeed to grasp the reality of it that can happen to others which they themselves have the luxury of not having to experience. I used to be there myself.

And who, pray tell, would you be talking about?

A Christian can end up with demons just like they can end up with germs or bacteria. An infection isn't an individual's fault. It just IS. It just happens. The important thing being to get it cured and healed, not to argue endlessly over whether they actually could be infected or not when the symptoms are right there in your face unmistakably. Especially when all such arguments have been, themselves, based on erroneous teachings concerning how such a thing happens in the first place, what it consists of, and what it presumably "means".

i don't believe that christians can have demons INHABITING them.

And again, it doesn't mean anything more than getting meningitis would "mean". It does not reflect upon the individual's spiritual viability nor does it affect his position in Christ IN THE HEAVENLIES which has been established by the Cross. It does, and will, however, affect his current perception and experience of how much of that position he can access, live in, connect with and walk in here, now, today, until the infection blocking those things gets removed. It's as simple as that.

Lies block - truth unblocks!

And if a demon successfully lies to you and uses others to deceive you who is in control in that situation? Is the part of your mind that knows "the Truth" in control? Is the part of your mind capable of breaking that deception in control? Is your own will in control there, have you chosen to be deceived? Of course not -- that would be a misnomer by pure definition -- no one "chooses" to be deceived any more than anyone "chooses" to be raped. But what I hear you saying here goes beyond this. I hear you saying the victim of something like this is basically doing the spiritual equivalent of choosing to be raped. So again I will reiterate, that would be impossible. Because if choice is involved, it's not really rape (or deception). Simple as that.

Oooooh hang on! You DO choose to be decieved! Look at Adam...he chosed to believe the lies of the Devil....Jesus chose NOT to believe the lies of the Devil. Don't for one moment think that those who are deceived are there by accident - they are not! They choose to be deceived because they choose to believe the lies over the truth!

The truth alone will defeat lies. Yes, I agree. I concur wholeheartedly. But saying the bondage wrought by the lies does not exist IS NOT PART OF THE TRUTH!!! What part of that is so incomprehensible here? The only reason you would apply truth to break lies would be because the lies have created a situation where the individual is in some kind of bondage and needs that to break out of it. In cases of demonization, however, it goes beyond believing the "wrong thing" about oneself. It comes down to cases of being invasively altered where the battle is pressed to a level FAR DEEPER than that of mere beliefs. It is pressed to the level of the experiential, to where it's not that a person cannot BELIEVE the truth (mentally embrace it, assent to it as true, etc.) but rather, they have been made incapable of EXPERIENCING it personally and individually, because their perceptions and the dynamic functions of their intellect, emotions, and will have been taken captive or hostage by a hostile force that actively, aggressively labors to KEEP them locked away from what Christ has for them. This is far different than just "falling for a line", people. Good grief.

No not bondage. The person has just believed the lies over the truth. And the truth will defeat all lies! Bondage is part of the lie! If you believe that you are in bondage ('you' is generalised) then you are believing the lie! The truth is that you are set free from bondage! That's the truth! You either believe it or you don't. If you don't then you WILL remain where you are...believing lies...living lies! If you do then you will grow and flourish in Christ and your life will be a life of life and not death!

 

[Cassidy]

I think that is what is most scary, some very sincere believers have problems that are not just their flesh, there is a spiritual element to it and when it is put down to only being the flesh by so many, it only compounds the problem that they can't get rid of or overcome.

I agree with not seeing demons everywhere, absolutely discernment is a lacking skill in some 'Christian' circles but it is wrong also to ignore that demons can and will oppress bit by bit if you let them, they are not friendly (unless that is to entice you into something you can't get out of later). Where believers have a lack of knowledge or are willingly ignoring the cautions of the Holy Spirit it's asking for trouble. The devil prowls round like a raging lion waiting to devour.. God protects us more than we realise but that doesn't mean lusts of all kinds leading to addictions of all kinds doesn't happen in believers and telling them it's just the flesh is not going to free them.

Again discernment is so important. Thank God He gifts and calls people to help those in the church who are needing help to gain freedom from what the rest of the church has called a flesh problem.

But it is the flesh! That's what the bible says! Yes the devil entices and lies and deceives and those who are walking in the flesh and not the spirit are more susseptible to believing these lies which will then cause them to go deeper and deeper into the things of the flesh. But the answer is Jesus...Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life!

Sometimes I am amazed at how complicated people make this!

 

[pinetree]

[/color][/color]

What does the Word call fits of rage and "dabbling" in sorcery?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, envy, murders, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

​

So, the scriptural answer to your question is YES, Born Again Spirit filled Christians can indeed exhibit fits of rage and dabble in sorcery and the Bible calls it a work of the flesh - NOT demonic possession, oppression, inhabitation, influence or anything else.

Yup! it is all sooo clear...
FLESH!

 

[pinetree]

Ya know friends,I understand people holding to experience,thats fine..

BUT!

If someone asked you a few questions,,

Like..

How do we know that we are justified by faith?

How do we know we have to be born again?

How do we know about our eternal high priest?

How do we know about the new covenant?

How do we know we are seated in the heavenly realms?

And soooo many more questions...

Where would you turn to answer those questions?

Yet the very bible you would turn to,does not seem to matter now,when in fact scripture is quite clear,about who we are,and it is not allowing room for inhabitation!

 

[Cassidy]

The answers to these questions is what the devil likes to lie to people with. You need the real answers to these questions is what will help people to overcome. The word...the truth!

 

[icarusforde]

well, back from school and into the thread again...

Pinetree:

Ya know friends,I understand people holding to experience,thats fine..

BUT! etc....

You have a valid point. If you believe the fact that the Bible is pure truth, then surely the fact that there is no mention of spirit filled believers being inhabited in the bible holds some weight against this topic?

I mean, demons are serious business. God wouldnt leave something so critical out of the bible, when we could need it. The God i know wouldnt do that. Its not in His nature, to leave us open to something that could destroy us.

My take. =]

 

[pinetree]

well, back from school and into the thread again...

Pinetree:


You have a valid point. If you believe the fact that the Bible is pure truth, then surely the fact that there is no mention of spirit filled believers being inhabited in the bible holds some weight against this topic?

I mean, demons are serious business. God wouldnt leave something so critical out of the bible, when we could need it. The God i know wouldnt do that. Its not in His nature, to leave us open to something that could destroy us.

My take. =]

Amen bro...

1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world

 

[pinetree]

We received a spirit of power,the holy spirit,not a bad spirit.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

This is a false doctrine being taught,that a Christian can be inhabited,possessed,or entered.

It flys right in the face of all that God says who we are..

 

[pinetree]

1 Thessalonians 5:5
You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

We are Children of light,not darkness..

The light of the world,who is Christ,is in us..
John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

We are the light also,because he is in us,not bad spirits..:o..

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.