'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

[redleghunter]

'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled


For a man renowned for his civility, the language was blunt. During his annual speech to the Anglican Church’s Sydney synod, Archbishop Glenn Davies told supporters of same-sex marriage to “please leave us”.

“My own view is that if people wish to change the doctrine of our church, they should start a new church or join a church more aligned to their views,” he said. “But do not ruin the Anglican Church by abandoning the plain teaching of scripture.”

In a report published on the Sydney Anglicans website, Davies’s media manager, Russell Powell, said the archbishop had received a standing ovation at the end of his address – as indeed he had.

But in pockets of the hall, there was also discomfort, if not with the core sentiment then with the tone. Davies has long been frustrated by what he believes is the excessive liberalism or tolerance of other Australian bishops towards same-sex relationships, particularly among clergy.


Now he watches as two relatively small parts of the church – the dioceses of Wangaratta in Victoria and Newcastle in New South Wales – are moving to bless same-sex marriages.

Pro-gay marriage Anglicans are walking a fine line in the Australian church. Some want a full marriage rite, such as the one that exists in the Episcopal Church of the US. Others, such as the members of the Wangaratta synod, have voted to bless same-sex marriages conducted under civil law. To Sydney’s “guardians” (their word) of orthodoxy, it is a distinction without difference.

More at link: 'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled | Andrew West

 

[Heavenhome]

I am not Anglican but applaud the Archbishop's comments to leave.
This is a fine example of the world coming into the church ( or wanting to).

Too many churches of all denominations seem to put numbers or popularity above Biblical doctrine.

One expression I hate is " how can we make the church more relevant to people? " and then start letting all kinds of sin or wrong teaching in the distorted view of "love".

If we truly love people and more importantly God, we live by His truth regardless of the consequence.

 

[redleghunter]

I am not Anglican but applaud the Archbishop's comments to leave.
This is a fine example of the world coming into the church ( or wanting to).

Too many churches of all denominations seem to put numbers or popularity above Biblical doctrine.

One expression I hate is " how can we make the church more relevant to people? " and then start letting all kinds of sin or wrong teaching in the distorted view of "love".

If we truly love people and more importantly God, we live by His truth regardless of the consequence.

Indeed the love we show is the Gospel which is Truth.

 

[eclipsenow]

The Australian media have torn him to shreds for this. We only just legalised gay marriage. The culture is at the point of demanding we not just tolerate the gay lifestyle but celebrate it at every level of government and society and church. The media are portraying us all as hating gays and being anti-gay and wanting all gays to leave our churches, which is just not true! We want those pro-gay-marriage bishops that would change our doctrine to leave, not a church member that might be struggling with same-sex attraction.

The Anglican church has Liberty ministries set up to minister to Christians struggling with same-sex attraction. This CLC podcast interviews Sam Allberry, and he's the kind of gay bishop I think demonstrates how God loves everyone, even people struggling with same sex attraction. This podcast is a must for anyone wanting to have something to say or share with Christians thinking through this issue. https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-episode-020-is-god-anti-gay-with-sam-allberry/id1206702170?i=1000421095508

 

[HatedByAll]

The Bible is clear on this subject. In my youth, I read all the attempts by people who claimed to be Christians and tried to justify homosexuality by Christians. I was highly motivated to believe what they were saying, but there is just no way to justify what they say with what the Bible says. No matter how much I had wished it was not, it is clearly a sin.

Praise God for people like this Archbishop. He states the truth of the Bible, no matter the cost. We all should be so brave.

 

[redleghunter]

The Australian media have torn him to shreds for this. We only just legalised gay marriage. The culture is at the point of demanding we not just tolerate the gay lifestyle but celebrate it at every level of government and society and church. The media are portraying us all as hating gays and being anti-gay and wanting all gays to leave our churches, which is just not true! We want those pro-gay-marriage bishops that would change our doctrine to leave, not a church member that might be struggling with same-sex attraction.

The Anglican church has Liberty ministries set up to minister to Christians struggling with same-sex attraction. This CLC podcast interviews Sam Allberry, and he's the kind of gay bishop I think demonstrates how God loves everyone, even people struggling with same sex attraction. This podcast is a must for anyone wanting to have something to say or share with Christians thinking through this issue. https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-episode-020-is-god-anti-gay-with-sam-allberry/id1206702170?i=1000421095508

Helping those who struggle, meaning fighting, is one thing. Acceptance is another where you perform ceremonies.

 

[Aussie Pete]

'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled


For a man renowned for his civility, the language was blunt. During his annual speech to the Anglican Church’s Sydney synod, Archbishop Glenn Davies told supporters of same-sex marriage to “please leave us”.

“My own view is that if people wish to change the doctrine of our church, they should start a new church or join a church more aligned to their views,” he said. “But do not ruin the Anglican Church by abandoning the plain teaching of scripture.”

In a report published on the Sydney Anglicans website, Davies’s media manager, Russell Powell, said the archbishop had received a standing ovation at the end of his address – as indeed he had.

But in pockets of the hall, there was also discomfort, if not with the core sentiment then with the tone. Davies has long been frustrated by what he believes is the excessive liberalism or tolerance of other Australian bishops towards same-sex relationships, particularly among clergy.


Now he watches as two relatively small parts of the church – the dioceses of Wangaratta in Victoria and Newcastle in New South Wales – are moving to bless same-sex marriages.

Pro-gay marriage Anglicans are walking a fine line in the Australian church. Some want a full marriage rite, such as the one that exists in the Episcopal Church of the US. Others, such as the members of the Wangaratta synod, have voted to bless same-sex marriages conducted under civil law. To Sydney’s “guardians” (their word) of orthodoxy, it is a distinction without difference.

More at link: 'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled | Andrew West

The Anglican diocese of Sydney has always been comparatively evangelical. I also applaud the Archbishop's stand.

 

[Not David]

Mother @Paidiske since you live in Australia and you are Anglican what do you think?

 

[Paidiske]

Note: I am in the diocese of Melbourne, which tends to differ from Sydney in significant ways.

I would say that this statement has Anglicans rattled in large part because trying to reject one another, rather than to discern our way through disagreements together and resolve issues through dialogue, is not the Anglican way. And it seems to be a statement calculated to further a climate in which formal schism in Australia is likely (noting that later in the week, after giving this statement, this Archbishop participated in the consecration in New Zealand of a schismatic bishop formally outside the global Anglican communion; which would seem to have been an action taken outside the authority given to him by his position in the church).

Speaking personally, these comments caused a great deal of pastoral harm in my parish and diocese. I don't object to the Archbishop of Sydney having or upholding his view, but to do so in these terms has severe consequences which I don't believe he took into account appropriately.

 

[Not David]

It seems like the Anglican community does don't care about how each decision affects the community as a whole.

 

[Paidiske]

It seems like the Anglican community does don't care about how each decision affects the community as a whole.

Want to clarify that a bit?

 

[Quartermaine]

The Australian media have torn him to shreds for this. We only just legalised gay marriage. The culture is at the point of demanding we not just tolerate the gay lifestyle but celebrate it at every level of government and society and church. The media are portraying us all as hating gays and being anti-gay and wanting all gays to leave our churches, which is just not true! We want those pro-gay-marriage bishops that would change our doctrine to leave, not a church member that might be struggling with same-sex attraction.

You have just affirmed the media's portrayal

 

[SkyWriting]

'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

If we truly love God, then we follow His commands:

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Galatians 5
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Matthew 19:18-19
He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Leviticus 19:34
You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Luke 10:27-37
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

John 13
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

 

[SkyWriting]

Helping those who struggle, meaning fighting, is one thing. Acceptance is another where you perform ceremonies.

Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself.

 

[SkyWriting]

Davies has long been frustrated by what he believes is the excessive liberalism or tolerance of other Australian bishops towards same-sex relationships, particularly among clergy.

How are we supposed to treat others?

 

[Not David]

Want to clarify that a bit?

The result seems to cause a lot of trouble to the Australian Anglican community

 

[Paidiske]

The result seems to cause a lot of trouble to the Australian Anglican community

To be fair, I don't think that's just because of particular decisions made by leaders. Our society is deeply divided in all sorts of ways, and the Church has to try to navigate those divisions with grace and joy and peace. Not a simple process!

 

[eclipsenow]

You have just affirmed the media's portrayal

How? I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[eclipsenow]

the Church has to try to navigate those divisions with grace and joy and peace. Not a simple process!

But where is the line in the sand? Sydney Anglicans do not want to participate in a 'communion' that celebrates rebellion against God. Why call ourselves a church if that's what we are celebrating? We have ministries to people trying to live a faithful celibate Christian life if gay. But asking us to adopt gay marriage is against what the bible teaches us marriage is. This is not like whether or not to buy this or that church property, or what colour to paint the walls where we might "discern our way through disagreements together and resolve issues through dialogue". This isn't whether or not to eat meat sacrificed to idols. This is the LGBTIQ community shoving a modern day idol right in the middle of our church and demanding that we bow down and worship it! I'm not superior to them, mind you. As a heterosexual bloke, I have all sorts of struggles staying faithful in my thinking. I struggle with it, and recognise that my straight sexuality is as broken and sinful as any gay wandering. But I'm not saying we should all gather around and play a movie of my thought life in church and ask people to 'dialogue with it' or even bless it! I'm calling it what it is, and asking people to pray for me and God to forgive me. What 'dialogue' do you think we should have with bishops demanding that we 'give the other side a hearing' and consider blessing same sex marriages in our churches? There comes a point where we read the bible on this, say this far and no further, and anything on the other side of the line is out. If they repent, and are going to struggle to stay faithful to the bible in doctrine and practice, then of course we'll welcome them back. Just as God does me any time I 'wander'.

 

[Paidiske]

But where is the line in the sand? Sydney Anglicans do not want to participate in a 'communion' that celebrates rebellion against God. Why call ourselves a church if that's what we are celebrating? We have ministries to people trying to live a faithful celibate Christian life if gay. But asking us to adopt gay marriage is against what the bible teaches us marriage is. This is not like whether or not to buy this or that church property, or what colour to paint the walls where we might "discern our way through disagreements together and resolve issues through dialogue". This isn't whether or not to eat meat sacrificed to idols. This is the LGBTIQ community shoving a modern day idol right in the middle of our church and demanding that we bow down and worship it!... What 'dialogue' do you think we should have with bishops demanding that we 'give the other side a hearing' and consider blessing same sex marriages in our churches? There comes a point where we read the bible on this, say this far and no further, and anything on the other side of the line is out. If they repent, and are going to struggle to stay faithful to the bible in doctrine and practice, then of course we'll welcome them back.

The matter of blessing of civil marriages has been referred to the Appellate Tribunal, and there is a clear process to be followed there. There is no need, while that process is taking place, to ask others to "please leave" the church.

Clergy have all sworn an oath to be bound by Anglican polity and canon law. I would say not breaking that oath while remaining in office would be a line in the sand most of us would like to see observed. That basic integrity ought to be part of how we pilgrimage together as Anglicans.

I would also draw your attention to this part of the rules governing this forum: "Discussion and debate about the morality of homosexuality or same-sex marriage is not allowed." There are aspects of this matter which are off-topic in this forum.