Please help

[forgivin]

My wife is co-owner of a family business and recently the family discovered that one of four owners (a cousin) had been scamming company money. He was the president of the company and the accountant. From 2001 till last week he has lost a little over $900,000 dollars. Yes nine hundred thousand dollars in company money through bad investments and personal stuff like trips to paying personal bills like car payments and personal credit cards. My wife’s brother the other owner says that the cousin (thief) is Bipolar and they should forgive him and start over with a clean slate. He says that they should follow the bible and forgive him and move on. The Bipolar cousin doesn’t admit to anything nor does he apologize. The forth owner and my wife think they should consider legal action. So should they make this Bipolar person be responsible for his action or should they forgive him and give him a new start? What should a Christian do?

 

[Macca]

My wife is co-owner of a family business and recently the family discovered that one of four owners (a cousin) had been scamming company money. He was the president of the company and the accountant. From 2001 till last week he has lost a little over $900,000 dollars. Yes nine hundred thousand dollars in company money through bad investments and personal stuff like trips to paying personal bills like car payments and personal credit cards. My wife’s brother the other owner says that the cousin (thief) is Bipolar and they should forgive him and start over with a clean slate. He says that they should follow the bible and forgive him and move on. The Bipolar cousin doesn’t admit to anything nor does he apologize. The forth owner and my wife think they should consider legal action. So should they make this Bipolar person be responsible for his action or should they forgive him and give him a new start? What should a Christian do?

Well the easy answer is; of course you should forgive him.
But at the same time he has broken at least one law.
When we sin God forgives us, but the consequences still fall on us.
I believe he should face the law over what he has done.

 

[wonderwaleye]

SITE MUST BE HAVING PROBLEMS.

 

[wonderwaleye]

WHY DID THIS POST?

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear Forgivin

After reading your post Questions came to my mind.

1. Would it make any difference in GODS EYES if it were $1000.00 or $900,000 or even $ 1.00?

2. If he had netted the co. a five million dollar profit would these expenditures even come into question?

3. Without knowing anymore than you put in your post where's the crime? Each one of these items could be a deductible business expense.

4. Where were the other owners at the time?

5. Were the other owners riding comfortable on a bed of ignorance?

6. Do you know or understand anything about bipolar?

7. With these questions unanswered do I think he should be FORGIVEN without any criminal charges?




MY ANSWER WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IS YES!!!




With no more than what you posted here I can tell you that no criminal court would convict him of any crime.



I can only hope with these questions answered in your mind that you would also FORGIVE HIM.



One more thing. GOD didn't say FORGIVE and then make him pay to the last penny.




I would hope that each one of you make a new start with all forgiven including yourself.




MAY GODS WORD BE OPENED SO THAT WE ALL REMEMBER:



XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

 

[snoochface]

Well I disagree that no criminal court would convict him. He embezzled money from the company - of course he would be convicted if there is evidence of him doing so. Paying his personal bills and car payment, etc., is not a legitimate expense.

From a Christian point of view, yes you should forgive him. This, to me, means continue to love him. Continue to help him, try to get him on the proper medication for his bipolar disorder. Continue to include him in family gatherings.

But there is nothing whatsoever in the Bible or in Christian teaching that says forgiveness must include allowing someone to a) continue their sinful behavior, b) remain in a position where they are tempted to continue their sinful behavior, or c) treat us like doormats.

Forgiveness does not mean "Keep doing what you were doing". It means "What you did was wrong, and I don't even need an apology from you in order to forgive you - because I love you. But I'm not going to allow you to continue what you were doing to me."

He needs to be on medication, and hopefully the family can help him with that. He needs to have the love and support of his family during what will surely be a very difficult time. Maybe the family can even help him find new employment.

But he needs to be removed from the company. He needs to not be the president anymore. He needs to have his access to the funds terminated. There are other family members who are being hurt by his actions - the ones who are being swindled by him - and the same love and respect should be shown to them. They should not be allowed to suffer at his hands.

Love him. Forgive him. Get him help. And get him the heck away from the business.

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear Snoocface

Before you make this JUDGEMENT CALL I would like to ask you a few questions.

1. Where on this post did you ever find the word " embezzled " ?

2. Do you know what the co.'s agreements were?

3. Was the paying of these personal bills a reimbursement of business expenses?

4. Did the co. agree to furnish him a car?

5. Did the co. save money by paying his car payment rather than paying mileage?

6. Where do you find on this post it talking about sinful behavior?

7. MIGHT THERE BE A VERY GOOD REASON GOD DIRECTED US NOT TO JUDGE?

I hope when you answer these questions you shall have a change of HEART.

IT IS GOOD FOR US ALL TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

 

[snoochface]

I don't think the original poster would have even made the post if he didn't believe there was misconduct.

From the OP:

... and recently the family discovered that one of four owners (a cousin) had been scamming company money.

... and personal stuff like trips to paying personal bills like car payments and personal credit cards.

... The forth owner and my wife think they should consider legal action.

The first two quotes clearly indicate embezzlement. You don't use company money for personal expenses. Again, if there was not misconduct, why would any of the owners be considering legal action? Why would the original post even have been made?

I'm not judging the person because I don't know him. I am basing my response on the information provided in the original post.

I don't feel my heart needs to change because I DO believe they need to forgive him. I made that quite clear. They need to love him, they need to forgive him.

But if THEY, as the owners of the company, feel there was misconduct - which they clearly do or they would not be considering legal action - then they should not allow that misconduct to continue. It is possible, and necessary, to forgive anyone of anything. That does not mean you have to allow them to continue doing what they needed forgiveness for in the first place.

As for sinful behavior, again I refer to the information quoted above from the original post. If a person takes company money and uses it for personal expenses, that is stealing. Stealing is sinful behavior.

If there was a company agreement allowing the cousin to do these things, why did the original poster even ask his question in the first place?

I don't have a hard or judgemental heart. I believe in forgiveness, love, and continued support for this man. But based on the information provided, I do not think the owners have a responsibility to allow his behavior to continue, and I don't think you have demonstrated any good reason for them to do so.

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear Snoochface

Did you answer the questions I posted?

So that I understand ( and I do want to understand ) please answer these 7 questions for me.

Please list your answers with the # of the question.( I want to make sure I know what it is your talking about )

I will refrain from commenting on your last post as I'm not clear as to your answers.

ALWAYS REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

 

[snoochface]

I feel like you and I are hijacking this thread for our own personal disagreement. I think I answered your questions already, yes, but I will do so again for clarity's sake. After this, we probably just need to agree to disagree.

1. Where on this post did you ever find the word " embezzled " ?

I did not find the word "embezzled". It is implied with the following:

From the OP:

... and recently the family discovered that one of four owners (a cousin) had been scamming company money.

... and personal stuff like trips to paying personal bills like car payments and personal credit cards.

... The forth owner and my wife think they should consider legal action.

The first two quotes clearly indicate embezzlement. You don't use company money for personal expenses. Again, if there was not misconduct, why would any of the owners be considering legal action? Why would the original post even have been made?

2. Do you know what the co.'s agreements were?

Of course I don't. How could I?

But:

If there was a company agreement allowing the cousin to do these things, why did the original poster even ask his question in the first place? The other owners obviously feel there was misconduct on the part of the cousin.

3. Was the paying of these personal bills a reimbursement of business expenses?

I have no idea, but the original post suggests that it was not. If it had been, why would he have made the post in the first place, and why would the owners be considering legal action against him? They obviously believe there was misconduct on the cousin's part.

4. Did the co. agree to furnish him a car?

The original poster said it was the cousin's personal car. He used company money to pay for his personal car expenses.

"... and personal stuff like trips to paying personal bills like car payments and personal credit cards."

5. Did the co. save money by paying his car payment rather than paying mileage?

That is irrelevant to the matter of whether or not there was misconduct, and whether or not they should forgive the cousin. And of course I can't know the answer.

6. Where do you find on this post it talking about sinful behavior?

As for sinful behavior, again I refer to the information quoted above from the original post. If a person takes company money and uses it for personal expenses, that is stealing. Stealing is sinful behavior.

7. MIGHT THERE BE A VERY GOOD REASON GOD DIRECTED US NOT TO JUDGE?

There sure is.

I'm not judging the person because I don't know him. I am basing my response on the information provided in the original post.

I don't feel my heart needs to change because I DO believe they need to forgive him. I made that quite clear. They need to love him, they need to forgive him.

I don't have a hard or judgemental heart. I believe in forgiveness, love, and continued support for this man. But based on the information provided, I do not think the owners have a responsibility to allow his behavior to continue.

 

[godsgirl4ever]

forgive him but if he does anything again like that just give him a smaller job then the one he has.

 

[katallasso]

$900,000.00 where does this person get off with getting away with almost a million dollars with no accountably? Talk about enabling.

I am a person with bi-polar disorder and never in my wildest dreams would I ever consider taking this much money from family members or anyone else for that matter.

This is out and out theivery and there should be consequences. Yes, they can forgive him, but he must make restitution. He could take a cut in pay til the debt is paid if they don't want to prosecute. But in no way should he be let go, scot free having taken so much money from his families' business.

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear Snoochface

1. It is implied

2. Of course I don't. How could I?

3. I have no idea

4. He used company money to pay for his personal car expenses

5. And of course I can't know the answer.

6. I refer to the information quoted above from the original post.

7. I am basing my response on the information provided in the original post.


MIGHT THERE BE A VERY GOOD REASON GOD DIRECTED US NOT TO JUDGE?

Dear Snoochface I make this post in the LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST. I hope we can stand together under HIS LOVE.


WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

 

[TheDag]

MIGHT THERE BE A VERY GOOD REASON GOD DIRECTED US NOT TO JUDGE?

Dear Snoochface I make this post in the LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST. I hope we can stand together under HIS LOVE.

Hi Wonderwaleye
Could you maybe provide a bit more context to the God directed us not to judge comment. While you are correct in saying that the bible also says that we are to judge. So either the bible contradicts itself or there are times and places where it is appropiate and other times where it is inappropiate. So before you said we should not judge did you ask the questions to find out if it is okay to or not?

Maybe you should be having a go at the three owners of the company who have obviously judged him. How do we know this? The OP says that two of the owners believe legal action should be taken. So they have judged him to be guilty. The other owner says that he should be forgiven. If nothing wrong has been done then there is no need for forgiveness.

 

[TheDag]

Interesting that nobody has addressed the issue of should this person be removed from their job if they are unable to do it properly. If we look at the OP it is not the entire amount that has ben used for personal expenses. Some of it lost because of bad investments. In other companies people lose their job for making poor investment choices so should that be the case for an owner. I don't know how things work in the USA but it certainly can be difficult to remove an owner depending on how things were set up to begin with.

Also I would say lets remember that forgiveness is conditional. Gods love is unconditional but his forgiveness isn't. For forgiveness there must be repentance or an acknowledgment of doing wrong. According to the OP there is a refusal to believe there was any wrong. So first we need to determine if there is actually a need for forgiveness. From the OP it would seem that there is although it is not unheard of for companies to agree to pay for personal expenses.

 

[bumblebee62331]

He should be forgiven.

However, he broke the law. He doesn't realise what he has done is wrong. It doesn't matter if he is Bipolar - it wasn't an accident, he lost a great amount of money. If he isn't 'punished' he will do it again, to other people, who will take him to court.

Just as my mum said that if she discovered I was doing anything illegal, as much as she loves me, she would report me to the police, this man needs to be reported. If he is not reported, that is not going to help him in the long run. He needs to realise that was wrong and be discouraged from doing it again. At this point in time, I am sure he believes he got away with it, and will get away with it again.

Personally forgiving him is different to reporting him. You can forgive him, but you still need to get justice for all those affected by his illegal activities.

 

[forgivin]

Here is what happened. In late 2001 the cousin (owner #4) started investing money into personal not company investments in the stock market. If he would have made a lot of money it would have been his personal profit not for the company. But By 2002 he had lost all of his personal money including savings. Now the mother company that he is the president of and accountant for owns 3 companies. The cousin started taking money from the small sister company that he also managed. He used the money to pay his personal bills and brokers he had barrowed from. He then had the mother company send that company merchandise at cost to sell. But when the merchandise was sold he took the money for more investing and paying off personal dept, instead of paying back the mother company. By 2004 both companies were so in dept he had to hide it from the other owners. He took out company credit cards and business loans from local banks. He then had to cover for the bigger life style, so he stopped paying the business sales taxes and stop the company from contributing to employee’s 401k plans. Since he was the president and accountant he could do anything he wanted. He got all the mail, and even went to court for the business taxes being behind and worked out a payment deal with the state government. He was giving the other 3 owners bonus checks telling them that business was better than ever. One day my wife (owner #2) called one of the vendors for a special order and they told her they couldn’t do business any more because they were behind on last years payments. So my wife started investigating the records while he was gone to Hawaii for a family vacation. The first thing she found was that he used company money to pay for his trip to Hawaii. Then everything started unfolding from there. First they found that he had been using company credit cards to pay for about all his personal stuff, like food, mortgage, trips, and even stuff he bought for his wife and kids. Since how he made $90,000 a year salary they started looking to see what was really going on. That’s when they found a weird money trail in his office. They hired an accounting team to come in and figure out what happened. That’s when they found out what he was doing, taking money from somewhere to give to himself, then taking money from somewhere else to cover that, then somewhere else to cover that, and so on until it got to over $900,000 in money the had lost since 2001 until now. Now owners 1, 2, &3 are barrowing money and selling personal assets to keep the company from filling bankrupt because owner #4 has no more money or savings. If they shut down, people will lose their jobs and the people and companies this company owes will lose their money too. Owner #1 is my wife’s mother and she is very old. Now my wife’s brother (owner #3) says that the cousin (owner #4) is Bipolar and they should forgive him and start over with a clean slate. He says that they should follow the bible and forgive him and move on. The Bipolar cousin doesn’t admit to anything nor does he apologize. Owner #1 and my wife think they should consider legal action. So should they make this bipolar person be responsible for his action or should they forgive him and give him a new start? What should a Christian do?

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear Snoochface

I cannot tell you why I write the things I do or what the outcome will be or even who the folks will be that these words will effect.



I ask the HOLY SPIRIT to loose my hand that I write what it is HE tells to me write.



I was telling you in your loving advise to be careful about making a judgement call on such vague statements.



I persisted and It may be for a very good reason. Just maybe our discourse was an eyeopener to the first post. GOD doesn't tell me everything or what the outcome will be. HE just tells me to go forward in faith.



It's really good this way. All I got to do is do what the BOSS says and it is HIS responsibility to see that it works.



I have no doubt HE can handle it.



Then there's another thing to consider. In GODS WORD It says: " VICTORY IS HIS " ( BOSS takes all the GLORY and RIGHTLY SO )



IT IS SO WONDERFUL TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

 

[snoochface]

Dear Snoochface

I cannot tell you why I write the things I do or what the outcome will be or even who the folks will be that these words will effect.

...

As I said to you before, we should agree to disagree at this point. I did not reply to your last post, so I'm not sure what your intention is with this final message to me. It doesn't really matter - I disagree with your stance, and you clearly disagree with mine. Can we please leave it at that?

Next comments are directed to forgivin, the original poster:

Thank you for clarifying the situation with additional details. Clearly, your cousin embezzled funds from not just one company, but several, in order to finance his personal bills, investments, vacations, and overall lifestyle.

While this could be prosecuted in a court of law, I understand the hesitation. He is family and he could be bipolar.

My personal opinion stands: I don't think it's necessary for him to apologize in order for the family to forgive him. Forgiveness is for the forgiver, not for the forgivee.

But forgiveness does not mean that he should be allowed to continue stealing from these companies, putting the businesses and the people behind them at risk for their own financial security. He should be removed from his position in the company. His access to the finances should be terminated. And I feel the family should help him get on the proper medication for his illness and help him realize that he really does need medical or psychiatric assistance, if at all possible.

As for prosecution, it's a huge sum of money we are talking about - close to a million dollars - and if convicted he would very likely go to jail for a number of years. The decision to prosecute or not depends on a number of factors. The owners of the businesses have a fiduciary responsibility to their customers, venders, and employees to run the companies ethically and with good business sense. There is also a binding agreement with the SEC, if the companies are incorporated. I think the owners need to speak to a lawyer to determine their own liability if they do not prosecute, and make the decision from there.

It is the correct Christian thing to do to forgive this person. But forgiveness does not mean allowing his actions to continue, or to hurt so many others in the company.

Here are some scripture references for you.

Matthew 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Matthew 18:21-22 "Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."

(After the parable of the wicked slave)
Matthew 18:35 ""My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Mark 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions."

We ARE to rebuke our brothers who sin.

Luke 17:3-4 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

And regarding the law and prosecution...

Romans 13:1-2 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves."

Romans 13:5-8 "Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law."

Romans 13:10 "Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

 

[wonderwaleye]

Here is what happened. In late 2001 the cousin (owner #4) started investing money into personal not company investments in the stock market. If he would have made a lot of money it would have been his personal profit not for the company. But By 2002 he had lost all of his personal money including savings. Now the mother company that he is the president of and accountant for owns 3 companies. The cousin started taking money from the small sister company that he also managed. He used the money to pay his personal bills and brokers he had barrowed from. He then had the mother company send that company merchandise at cost to sell. But when the merchandise was sold he took the money for more investing and paying off personal dept, instead of paying back the mother company. By 2004 both companies were so in dept he had to hide it from the other owners. He took out company credit cards and business loans from local banks. He then had to cover for the bigger life style, so he stopped paying the business sales taxes and stop the company from contributing to employee’s 401k plans. Since he was the president and accountant he could do anything he wanted. He got all the mail, and even went to court for the business taxes being behind and worked out a payment deal with the state government. He was giving the other 3 owners bonus checks telling them that business was better than ever. One day my wife (owner #2) called one of the vendors for a special order and they told her they couldn’t do business any more because they were behind on last years payments. So my wife started investigating the records while he was gone to Hawaii for a family vacation. The first thing she found was that he used company money to pay for his trip to Hawaii. Then everything started unfolding from there. First they found that he had been using company credit cards to pay for about all his personal stuff, like food, mortgage, trips, and even stuff he bought for his wife and kids. Since how he made $90,000 a year salary they started looking to see what was really going on. That’s when they found a weird money trail in his office. They hired an accounting team to come in and figure out what happened. That’s when they found out what he was doing, taking money from somewhere to give to himself, then taking money from somewhere else to cover that, then somewhere else to cover that, and so on until it got to over $900,000 in money the had lost since 2001 until now. Now owners 1, 2, &3 are barrowing money and selling personal assets to keep the company from filling bankrupt because owner #4 has no more money or savings. If they shut down, people will lose their jobs and the people and companies this company owes will lose their money too. Owner #1 is my wife’s mother and she is very old. Now my wife’s brother (owner #3) says that the cousin (owner #4) is Bipolar and they should forgive him and start over with a clean slate. He says that they should follow the bible and forgive him and move on. The Bipolar cousin doesn’t admit to anything nor does he apologize. Owner #1 and my wife think they should consider legal action. So should they make this bipolar person be responsible for his action or should they forgive him and give him a new start? What should a Christian do?

Dear forgivin

In order to protect the company's reputation and the employees jobs given the information you have now supplied I would turn this over to the district attorney and let him make the decisions as what should be done.



In other words I would let the law take care of the law.



If it's mental illness that is the cause of this then the law should consider this in any action taken.



There is a big difference between a civil action that is taken by you and an action by a government authority.




GOD WORD SAYS: " WE SHALL OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND "



It has been shown for one reason or another that this person is not to be allowed to put others at risk.



Forgiving him and helping him to make a new start, YES BY ALL MEANS. Helping his family cope, Yes.
Getting him the medical treatment needed, YES. Sharing GODS WORD with him, YES.




AND YES WE SHOULD ALL HELP HIM TO REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )