Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

[JoabAnias]

Are you in sin when you recieve absolution in the sacrament of penance?

No? Then are you a diety the moment you leave that sacrament? No either?

Well then, whats not adding up here?

Bump so my question can be answered?

 

[fleethefire]

He has been told several times by several of us.

This is just debate in OBOB in violation of safe haven and our FSG's at this point.

There is no real aim here to achieve understanding. Its a ruse imo.

If you read my original post, I asked for scriptures. I am still doing that, so how is this a ruse?

 

[sy1990]

How would have Mary said yes to God if she was a sinner who was filled with self love?

jus because she may have been a sinner does not mean she was filled with self love or that hse would have said no

the saints and prophets were sinners yet they accpeted gods path for them

like paul who was origionally saul

 

[benedictaoo]

Where is it mentioned in God's word that Mary did not commit a sin her entire life?

And where is it mentioned that Mary was created pre fall?

46And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.

53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:

55As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

Keep in mind that Christ was in her womb, not on the cross so I would like to know how she was claiming she was saved and that her soul magnifies God's?

also, what great things did God do for her?

Also read Relations 12.. the serpent could not get to her... very telling.

 

[JoabAnias]

this isnt about which denomination is right or wrong

Yes it is because you have picked this stuff up in the wrong places.

im giving my personal beliefs

You are your own denomination then. Your beliefs are in line with those of false teachers. Do you see the coorelation?

as i said i went to a catholic school all my life

Irrelevant. So did I and I knew no more than you at your age either. I learned many things the hard way.

i attended evangelical, protestant, non denominational churches so my beliefs are not one denominations beliefs

Religious indifference may be an excuse but its not the fulness of truth.

You can't merge error with truth and hold onto parts of error and still come up with truth.

luther broke away because the catholic churches were charging people to get them time of purgatory anyway

You may want to go back to the history books on that one. Luther broke away because he was consumed with animosity.

i speak as myself not as a certain denomination

The Church speaks for God.

 

[sy1990]

Bump so my question can be answered?

i jus dont feel that being forgiven of your sins and totally sinless are the same

 

[benedictaoo]

How would have Mary said yes to God if she was a sinner who was filled with self love?

jus because she may have been a sinner does not mean she was filled with self love or that hse would have said no

the saints and prophets were sinners yet they accpeted gods path for them

like paul who was origionally saul

Christ was not in the world at that time, we were sinners who had no grace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I brought this question up on another forum and it was suggested that I start a new thread.

My first question is what scripture verses support the idea of Purgatory?

And my second question is can anyone provide scripture verses to support the idea that Mary was without sin?

Go to www.scripturecatholic.com
Look up all the scriptures for both and their explanations to the verses in scriptures.

God Bless.

 

[JoabAnias]

If you read my original post, I asked for scriptures. I am still doing that, so how is this a ruse?

Because you were given the scriptures and still ask the same questions.

 

[benedictaoo]

i jus dont feel that being forgiven of your sins and totally sinless are the same

It's not.

being forgiven is where the hell the sin merited is removed. Being sinless is when we are perfect i.e holy.

When we are born again and given grace to live the divine life of God... we are put of a upward path to God and we transform the sinner into something truly beautiful for God.

It is called theosis and deification.

If you could google those and see what they mean.

 

[JoabAnias]

i jus dont feel that being forgiven of your sins and totally sinless are the same

So then if Jesus says your forgiven then you don't really believe Him?

 

[benedictaoo]

If you read my original post, I asked for scriptures. I am still doing that, so how is this a ruse?

I gave you scripture and oh-- i left one out.

Genesis, "the woman"

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel

Mary is both The Women in Genesis and The Women in Revelations 12.

How do we know?

Jesus called His mother "women."

 

[sy1990]

So then if Jesus says your forgiven then you don't really believe Him?

yes i do

yet we hav sinned and will sin again no matter how hard we try

 

[benedictaoo]

So then if Jesus says your forgiven then you don't really believe Him?

Joab, he is actully on the right track... we are forgiven but not made sinless. We grow in that.

 

[sy1990]

It's not.

being forgiven is where the hell the sin merited is removed. Being sinless is when we are perfect i.e holy.

When we are born again and given grace to live the divine life of God... we are put of a upward path to God and we transform the sinner into something truly beautiful for God.

It is called theosis and deification.

If you could google those and see what they mean.

yes we are trying to emmulate jesus and follow him but we can never be as holy as him

yes i agree but i dont think untill we meet god face to face we will ever be perfect what do you think

 

[benedictaoo]

yes i do

yet we have sinned and will sin again no matter how hard we try

Not necessarily... yes we are sinners but with grace we can do what we could never do on our own.

Transformation from the old into the new (as Paul says) does not happen over night.

The hell is gone for our sins and we are in God's friendship but our broken wounded selves prone to sin is still there and we do have to work on that cooperating with grace and mercy.

It's called transformation. It can happen. With God anything is possible.

 

[JoabAnias]

How would have Mary said yes to God if she was a sinner who was filled with self love?

jus because she may have been a sinner does not mean she was filled with self love or that hse would have said no

the saints and prophets were sinners yet they accpeted gods path for them

like paul who was origionally saul

Mary was human. She needed grace and salvation but never sinned.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Job 14:4)

The Saints weren't the mother of God.


Here are some excerpts from the book The Church Fathers Were Catholic:

St. Athanasius ​

. . . pure and unstained Virgin . . . (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8; Gambero, 102)

O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71, 216; Gambero, 106)

St. Ephraem​

Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, wereidentical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, theother the cause of our life (Op. syr. II, 327; Ott, 201)

The Virgin Mary is a symbol of the Church, when she receives the first announcement of the gospel . . . We call the Church by the name of Mary, for she deserves a double name. (Sermo ad noct. Resurr.; Gambero, 115)

Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain.(Nisibene Hymns, 27, v. 8; Ott, 201)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem​

Pure and spotless is this birth. For where the Holy Spirit breathes, all pollution is taken away, so that the human birth of the Only-begotten from the Virgin is undefiled. (Catechetical Lectures, XII, 31-32; Gambero, 140)

St. Gregory Nazianzen​

He was conceived by the Virgin, who had first been purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor. (Sermon 38, 13; Gambero, 162-163)

St. Gregory of Nyssa​

It was, to divulge by the manner of His Incarnation this great secret; that purity is the only complete indication of the presence of God and of His coming, and that no one can in reality secure this for himself, unless he has altogether estranged himself from the passions of the flesh. What happened in the stainless Mary when the fulness of the Godhead which was in Christ shone out through her, that happens in every soul that leads by rule the virgin life. (On Virginity, 2; NPNF 2, Vol. V, 344)

[T]he power of the Most High, through the Holy Spirit, overshadowed the human nature and was formed therein; that is to say, the portion of flesh was formed in the immaculate Virgin. (Against Apollinaris, 6; Gambero, 153)

St. Ambrose​

. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? (Virginity, II, 6; NPNF 2, Vol. X, 374)

St. Epiphanius​

Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain? (Panarion, 30, 31; Gambero, 127)

St. Jerome​

'There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.' The rod is the mother of the Lord--simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God Himself... Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of the Lord. (Letter XXII. To Eustochium, 19, 38; NPNF 2, Vol. VI, 29, 39; cf. Gambero, p. 213: “whose purity was so great that she merited to be the Mother of the Lord”)

Indeed how inferior they are, in terms of holiness, to blessed Mary, Mother of the Lord! (Contra Pelagianos, 1, 16; Gambero, 212)

St. Augustine​

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin whilst they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? (A Treatise on Nature and Grace, chapter 42 [XXXVI]; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

 

[sy1990]

Not necessarily... yes we are sinners but with grace we can do what we could never do on our own.

Transformation from the old into the new (as Paul says) does not happen over night.

The hell is gone for our sins and we are in God's friendship but our broken wounded selves prone to sin is still there and we do have to work on that cooperating with grace and mercy.

It's called transformation. It can happen. With God anything is possible.

yes i agree with that

on our own we are weak and therefore prone to sin but he can strengthen us

 

[benedictaoo]

yes we are trying to emmulate jesus and follow him but we can never be as holy as him

sure we can...

48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

and Peter say in the letters, be holy as God is holy and in the OT God said to be holy as he is holy.

So we can.. it is not easy but it can be done when you A) know who you are in Christ and B) give it all over to God, opening yourself up to the HS.

yes i agree but i dont think untill we meet god face to face we will ever be perfect what do you think

I think we can. God uses the events of our life to draw us near to Him and through our sufferings and trail, we can be made complete.

 

[benedictaoo]

yes i agree with that

on our own we are weak and therefore prone to sin but he can strengthen us

when we walk in the spirit, not in the flesh.