• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Please help, questions about Purgatory and Mary.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Yes, at her request He turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana, I trust that Our Lord will listern to her request to turn me into something better then what I am now
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
How would you explain it then?

The Grace we are speaking of is God's Divine Sanctifying Grace that is infused into us at the New Birth and through the Sacraments of the Church.

This is the very life and power of God Himself.

She is announced by the angel as being FULL of God's Grace.

One cannot be FULL of Divine Sanctifying Grace and have any room for sin.

If there is sin, there is a need for MORE Divine Sanctifying Grace.

With Mary, there was no more need .. She had been FULLY and COMPLETELY Graced with NO ROOM for more.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic

Absolutely!

She is the most poweful intercessor there is!

If her intercessions are not powerful enough, then nobody's is!
 
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
even though He said it was not yet His time, He still made more wine, because His mother asked Him too
Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?
no, it does not imply that
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
Would that imply that Stephen was snless as well?

Not from conception.

And remember, we are talking about what it says in Greek, not English, for the Greek controls our understanding.

Kecharitomene is used of only one person .. . Mary. It is not used of Stephen. So when it says he was full of grace, it is not saying he was perfectly, completely full of grace. . . .
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic

Do you understand our FSG's? Do you understand that to post here to debate or answer questions you must be a Catholic in FULL Communion with the Holy See and assent to ALL the Catholic Church teaches?

I would say that your background does NOT qualify you to answer questions about the Catholic Church or discuss it here, for if you were properly catechized and understood the the Catholic faith, you would still be Catholic.

Please stop flaunting our FSG's like this, and respect our forum is a safe haven for Catholics and quit attacking our Church. You are NOT qualified to do so in any manner.

Your ideas of biblical truth are your own, and simply your own opinion, and since those ideas do not line up with the teaching of the Catholic Church in which is preserved ALL truth and the FULLNESS of truth, any of your ideas which depart from, or contradict the Catholic Church ARE NOT biblical truths. . . just a mistaken pov.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
It does clarify the difference but I still do not see where the idea that grace cannot be with sin comes into play. Grace is the favor of God crrect? He bestows it on sinners all the time.

There is DIVINE SANCTIFYING GRACE which is the very life and power of God infused into the soul at the New Birth.

Then there are ACTUAL GRACES which God gives to empower us to do things.

Stephen was given ACTUAL graces to have heaven opened up to him.

Mary, on the other hand, was full of Divine Sanctifying Grace, PERFECTLY, COMPLETELY filled . nothing left to add to it..
 
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.
 
Reactions: D'Ann
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Thanks Joab

In reading this, I find it interesting that it states that Mary was given this grace and shown such favor by God even before she accepted the angel's word or could do anything to earn it, yet it is such a odd thing when we say God does the same for His elect. This does make Mary's regeneration before she could accept Christ in thetraditional sense more easily understood.

Also, I can understand Mary being shown this grace before conception but I still see no need that she be sinless. The material cites Samson's mother not consuming unclean things as an example, but those things are taken in by the body and would have been transferred through the blood to the child, sin is ones life is not active in the body in the same manner.
 
Reactions: D'Ann
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
well I do not think anyone says the people earn grace, it would not really be grace if we could earn it
i never thought of how God acted with Mary and the Calvinist understanding of Predestination, they do have a lot in common

another reason we think Mary was without sin, is because Jesus is without sin, Jesus got His humanity from His mother, God did not need to do it this way, but He did do it this way
Jesus did not have a sinful humanity, so neither did Mary
 
Upvote 0

PETE_

Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God
Jun 11, 2006
170,116
7,562
60
✟220,061.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
There is the idea in scripture that the sin nature is passed down in the seed of man, therefore Jesus would not inherit such a nature because He did not have a natural father. I do not now if that idea is seen in Catholic teaching or not but the idea that Maryhad to be sinless for the reasons you stated makes sense, but I do no see it in scripture in itself.
 
Reactions: D'Ann
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟105,374.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Think of it in human terms. What would you do for your own mother? About anything right?

Now consider God and what He would do for who He chose for His fleshly mother.

Adam and Eve were sinless when created. Our fallen nature is handed down from their fall.

Now Jesus and Mary are our new Adam and our new Eve.

It is also fitting that they would be sinless to remove that debt of original sin.

Jesus by virtue of being God Himself and Mary as a privilege of her Fiat or saying yes always to Gods will.

You see Jesus was utterly incapable of sin. Mary was not, however as a special grace of God was preserved of the stain of original sin for Christs sake and there after always did Gods will.

Though Jesus had no human father He did have a human Mother and Jesus shared her DNA. A mother who had to be the antithesis to the disobedience that over took Eve.

I know its an odd think. Its unique in salvation history. Our salvation through Jesus was a once and for all occurrence just as there was one sin of Eve that incurred the fall and one Mary or new Eve who did not.

Its important to realize we do not attribute this special grace given to Mary to glorify her humanity but to glorify the Lord and His promises.

Beyond this, Mary was a susceptible to sin as we are yet we know that we too can persevere in grace and remain sinless if we, like Mary, our greatest human example, always choose to do Gods will.

We all are capable of cooperating with grace.

Peace brother.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.