Please help me understand...

Denisse

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Hello!

I started going to a Charimatic Catholic church and I like it but I have some questions about things I don't quite understand, namely worship towards saints and Virgin Mary. Please, don't think I want to start an argument or a fight, I just don't understand exactly what does worshipping, for eg, Virgen Mary implies? Do you think she can make miracles? Do you pray to her as you pray for Jesus? Do you think she is a mediator between you and God?

I would really appreciate some answers about this :).

Thanks a lot!
 

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I started going to a Charimatic Catholic church and I like it but I have some questions about things I don't quite understand, namely worship towards saints and Virgin Mary. Please, don't think I want to start an argument or a fight, I just don't understand exactly what does worshipping, for eg, Virgen Mary implies?
The Old English root word for worship is weorthscipe. This word had a more generic meaning of giving respect to someone who is worthy of that respect. So "Your Worship" was a common appellation and is still used in English courts to address the judge versus the "Your Honor" that we use in the United States. The word has changed to mean the type of respect only fit to bestow on God. So Catholics typically try to not use the word worship when referring to Mary; but would prefer to say that we give her veneration or honor.

Do you think she can make miracles?
Mary is a created being just like you and I. She has no divine power separate from the power that her Son has. So as a Catholic I can say that I prayed to Mary to help with a problem and a miracle happened; but we understand that the actual miraculous event was done through the power of God.

Do you pray to her as you pray for Jesus?
A prayer to Mary is a prayer for her intercession with her Son. A prayer to Jesus is a direct prayer that can be fulfilled by Jesus alone.

Do you think she is a mediator between you and God?

Yes. She can be, through her Son. If you would like to study this more, look up the Jewish word Gebirah on the internet. In the era in Judea when they were ruled by Kings, these Kings had several wives. So who was Queen? The term Gebirah refers to the mother of the King and is still used today as "Queen Mother". This term is used 15 times in the Old Testament and shows that the Gebirah would give counsel to the King and that people would ask her to intercede with her son on their behalf.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Hello!

I started going to a Charismatic Catholic church and I like it but I have some questions about things I don't quite understand, namely worship towards saints and Virgin Mary. Please, don't think I want to start an argument or a fight, I just don't understand exactly what does worshipping, for eg, Virgen Mary implies? Do you think she can make miracles? Do you pray to her as you pray for Jesus? Do you think she is a mediator between you and God?

Don't let this confuse you. Mary is secondary. God is primary. This is true for Catholics who know their faith. There is a place for Mary even while the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit occupy the center of attention. All generations are to call Mary blessed. It's proper.

Mary and the saints apparently are responsible for some miracles, in that they are the agents involved in allowing God to work the miracles. God does any true miracle. But someone else might have had a part to play in it as well. Typically somebody prays for a miracle before it happens.

We should not be praying the same way to Mary as to God. God is due adoration. Nobody but God should be adored. Mary is not divine. Just a very special human being. You can pray to her as in asking, but not pray to her as in adoring. That would be something a good Catholic would warn you about.

Jesus is our principal mediator with the Father. But we all have tiny mediation roles, for example whenever we pray for someone else. Mary has only that kind of mediation role. It's real, but only as an assistant to the principal and irreplaceable mediator's role of Jesus. All mediation has to go through Jesus even if Mary or a saint or you or I had a small part in it.

Don't get hung up on Mary. Her role is real but only proper if you are already overflowing with love and prayer and devotion to God first. Then in perspective, attend also to Mary and the saints. After all, we will be spending eternity with them worshiping God. May as well count them as friends starting now.
 
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Open Heart

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I'm so glad you found our forum!

Let's be crystal clear about this. God is God, and human beings are human beings. Mary, although we love her dearly, honor her, respect her, venerate her, she is NOT God. Far from it! We do not give her the kind of worship we reserve for God alone.

That said, Mary is especially beloved by us because she is the mother of our Lord. She is "blessed among women" as the Bible says.

When you pray to Jesus, you are praying directly to God.

That is not true when you pray to Mary. Praying to Mary is just talking to her, as you would another Christian: we ask other Christians to pray for us to the Father through the son. That's what Mary does. She prays for us to the Father through the Son. There are miracles done that we attribute to those prayers sometimes, but we know that Mary actually has no powers: it is God who ultimately works those miracles as a result of her loving prayers. So, as a fellow Christian who prays for us, yes in that sense she is a mediator or intercessor. But NOT in the same sense that Jesus is. She must go to the Father through her son the same as all of us do.

Hope all that helps!
 
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Gnarwhal

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Hello!

I started going to a Charimatic Catholic church and I like it but I have some questions about things I don't quite understand, namely worship towards saints and Virgin Mary. Please, don't think I want to start an argument or a fight, I just don't understand exactly what does worshipping, for eg, Virgen Mary implies? Do you think she can make miracles? Do you pray to her as you pray for Jesus? Do you think she is a mediator between you and God?

I would really appreciate some answers about this :).

Thanks a lot!

This is one the subjects taught in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults). The thing to understand is the differences between dulia, hyper dulia and latria.

Dulia can best be described as reverence (Reverence (/ˈrɛvərəns/) is "a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration".), we revere the Saints because their lives on Earth so wonderfully modeled how imperfect people can follow Christ well.

Hyperdulia is a cut above "regular" dulia, but it's not latria. Generally hyper dulia is what we afford to the Virgin Mary, a very deep reverence because she is the Mother of God (Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man, since Mary gave birth to Jesus, she has the title "Mother of God", refuting this essentially denies the divinity of Jesus). We love her because she unwaveringly submitted to the will of God, first seen when the archangel Gabriel visited her and announced that she would give birth to Christ. There are verifiable accounts of her appearing to people and giving them messages that point them to her Son, Jesus.

Latria is worship, and nobody but the Holy Trinity alone is worthy of our adoration (Latria).

So yes we love and revere the Saints for what they've contributed to the faith and for what how they pray for us even now while they're in heaven with God, but God alone is the only being we actually worship.

It's also important to understand what "pray" actually means. It's inferred to most protestants that the act of praying is in itself worship, therefore praying to anyone by God is falsely seen as idolatry. To pray means "to plead, to beg, to ask earnestly", so if we're praying to Saints, we're asking them to join us in petitioning God. It's no different than when a protestant asks their friend from church to keep them in their prayers because they're sick, or anything like that. Even better, the Saints are in the very presence of God, so asking for their prayers is like asking the President's Chief of Staff (a person very physically close to the President) to ask him a favor or a question.
 
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Si_monfaith

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The Old English root word for worship is weorthscipe. This word had a more generic meaning of giving respect to someone who is worthy of that respect. So "Your Worship" was a common appellation and is still used in English courts to address the judge versus the "Your Honor" that we use in the United States. The word has changed to mean the type of respect only fit to bestow on God. So Catholics typically try to not use the word worship when referring to Mary; but would prefer to say that we give her veneration or honor.


Mary is a created being just like you and I. She has no divine power separate from the power that her Son has. So as a Catholic I can say that I prayed to Mary to help with a problem and a miracle happened; but we understand that the actual miraculous event was done through the power of God.


A prayer to Mary is a prayer for her intercession with her Son. A prayer to Jesus is a direct prayer that can be fulfilled by Jesus alone.



Yes. She can be, through her Son. If you would like to study this more, look up the Jewish word Gebirah on the internet. In the era in Judea when they were ruled by Kings, these Kings had several wives. So who was Queen? The term Gebirah refers to the mother of the King and is still used today as "Queen Mother". This term is used 15 times in the Old Testament and shows that the Gebirah would give counsel to the King and that people would ask her to intercede with her son on their behalf.

Eph 1:3- Becz Jesus died for us, God has blessed us with all blessings 2000 yrs back. We just take the blessings in Jesus' name.
 
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Vicomte13

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Let's be crystal clear about this. God is God, and human beings are human beings. Mary, although we love her dearly, honor her, respect her, venerate her, she is NOT God. Far from it! We do not give her the kind of worship we reserve for God alone.

In the "Sola Scriptura" context I say the same thing regarding the Bible. The Bible is NOT God. It is a record of what God and other people said and did. In the Bible, when God Himself speaks directly, it is ALWAYS identified. God said... YHWH said... Elohiym said... the voice from heaven said... God's messenger said. In the New Testament, Jesus said...

One of the things that Jesus said is "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God." It's a quite a long phrase that Jesus said there, and it is not, I note, "Everything that God said...", or "Every word that God ever inspired..." Jesus makes the distinction of words that proceed forth OUT OF THE MOUTH of God.

This is important, because men write in the Bible and say that every word of the Scripture is God breathed. God never said that out of his own mouth. A man says that. That's fine. That man is said - not out of God's mouth, mind you, but by tradition and by Scripture (to wit: he says it of himself, and another man says that what he writes is "scripture") - to have been inspired by God.

That is good. BUT some of the things that he says, and that other men say (in Psalms, for example) directly conflict with words that, Scripture tells us, proceeded directly forth out of the mouth of God.

In such cases, the hermeneutic OUGHT to be obvious - Jesus TOLD US how to parse that, by always going with the words that God spoke directly, and that are recorded as having been spoken by God DIRECTLY.

All of the major fights in Christianity are based on people replacing something that Jesus said with something that Paul, or James, or John said, and then arguing that "it's all the same because it's all in the Bible". THAT is bibliolatry - using the "authority of the Bible", generically asserted, to override the words of God IN the Bible, which tell you point blank how to interpret the Bible.

The ancient Jews did this too. Moses was given a law, and God at one point warns the Hebrews, out of his own mouth, not to add or subtract. But by Jesus' time we have lots of additions and subtractions, and Jesus attacking those additions and subtractions...and Jewish authorities attacking HIM, the Son of God, for attacking their tradition, which they asserted (and still do) is every bit equal to the written tradition, including the parts of the written tradition in which God speaks directly and says DON'T DO THAT.

Of course men are power-seeking, argument-seeking, libertine-freedom-seeking creatures, with evil thoughts from our youth, so OF COURSE we're going to do that. We have done it in every generation because men bend around the rules to make it easier on THEIR preferred sins, but to enhance their own authority as arbitrators of God. It isn't hard to see the motivation, or the result.

What is hard to understand is the vehemence with which people who ought to no better will fight for their bent traditions. THIS is where the power of the Devil becomes visible. People will not fight NEARLY as hard for the unvarnished, unbent truth as they will for the bent version, which gives some man some handle of power to be the ultimate arbiter of it. This is the fruit of minds infected by sin - they bend away from the truth EVEN where the truth doesn't particularly affect them.

In those Sola Scriptura threads, I often find myself writing "Paul is not God", because Paul is so very often help up to blot out the words of Jesus. Jesus said that men are judged by their DEEDS. Paul is read to say that men are judged by their thoughts, and indeed that a focus on deeds is a focus on "empty works" that are unavailing. And thus do people disregard the words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, and replace them by words that were "inspired by God", but that contradict what God said directly.

There are "Mary co-redemptrix" Catholics who truly believe that Mary, as God's consort to create Jesus, is "Queen of Heaven", and that she is co-redeemer along with her Son. That's not formal Catholic doctrine, but in parts of the Church it has been, and still is, taught by some of the clergy who believe it. Further, they believe that miracles come forth from that belief (which, if true, would mean that that belief is not actually offensive to God, or else he would not release the miracle).

Miracles have a way of testing faith. And are often God's way of demonstrating what his view of a matter is.
 
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Open Heart

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In the Bible, when God Himself speaks directly, it is ALWAYS identified.
Well, we TRUST that God at one time spoke directly. The Torah is a record of something happened in the past, but we were not actually there: we have faith that the Bible is correct.

For God to speak to us directly, we would have to audibly hear his voice.

And that may be more than we can handle. Remember the israelites couldn't bear it, and told Moses to have God speak through him.
 
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Open Heart

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Jesus makes the distinction of words that proceed forth OUT OF THE MOUTH of God.
I agree with you. Jesus here is speaking of the Laws of the Torah, where it is recorded, "The LORD *said*, Speak to the Children of Israel, saying..."
 
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Open Heart

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The ancient Jews did this too. Moses was given a law, and God at one point warns the Hebrews, out of his own mouth, not to add or subtract. But by Jesus' time we have lots of additions and subtractions, and Jesus attacking those additions and subtractions...and Jewish authorities attacking HIM, the Son of God, for attacking their tradition, which they asserted (and still do) is every bit equal to the written tradition, including the parts of the written tradition in which God speaks directly and says DON'T DO THAT.
In all fairness, part of the Torah, specifically Deuteronomy 17:8-15, states that if an item of law is too difficult to render in some case, to take it to the the levites or the 70 elders/judges (the sanhedron) for resolution. Go neither to the right nor left. AND if anyone disobeys them, KILL THEM so that all Israel shall be afraid. That means, for example, that Torah will say not to work on Sabbath, but what is work? Israel had to go to the Judges for the answer to the specifics, and what they said became binding.

Jesus BACKED UP the authority of Oral Torah in Matthew 23:1-2 when he 1. upheld the authority of the Pharisees to interpret Law (they sit on the seat of Moses, and 2. stated to his Jewish disciples to do and observe EVERYTHING they tell you. That "everything" included Oral Torah. He again supports Oral Torah in Matthew 23:23 in his discussion of the Spice Tax, which is Oral Law, when he tells the Pharisees to observe the basics of the Torah first, and then observe the Spice Tax, IOW do BOTH Torah and Oral Torah.

What we can learn from this is that these Oral Interpretations of Law, this case law, is not the same as adding or subtracting from the Law.
 
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chevyontheriver

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In the "Sola Scriptura" context I say the same thing regarding the Bible. The Bible is NOT God. It is a record of what God and other people said and did. In the Bible, when God Himself speaks directly, it is ALWAYS identified. God said... YHWH said... Elohiym said... the voice from heaven said... God's messenger said. In the New Testament, Jesus said...

...

What we can learn from this is that these Oral Interpretations of Law, this case law, is not the same as adding or subtracting from the Law.
All very interesting speculation. For a Catholic, something like this would have to be examined to see if it accords with our tradition in understanding Scripture. For a beginning step, we would want to see if your speculation accords with 'Dei Verbum from Vatican II. I haven't dug into your speculation yet, but that would be my first step.
 
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Maryslittleflower

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In the way we define worship (more appropriately termed adoration), no we don't 'worship' Mary. We don't adore her as God. We honour her as our spiritual Mother, and venerate her. We can pray to her. That's not a form of adoration necessarily.
 
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Simon_Templar

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There are "Mary co-redemptrix" Catholics who truly believe that Mary, as God's consort to create Jesus, is "Queen of Heaven", and that she is co-redeemer along with her Son. That's not formal Catholic doctrine, but in parts of the Church it has been, and still is, taught by some of the clergy who believe it. Further, they believe that miracles come forth from that belief (which, if true, would mean that that belief is not actually offensive to God, or else he would not release the miracle).

Miracles have a way of testing faith. And are often God's way of demonstrating what his view of a matter is.

While it is certainly possible for Catholics to have improper views and attitudes towards Mary, the terms and ideas you present here are often misunderstood by protestants.

All Catholics, as far as I'm aware, view Mary as the Queen of Heaven. This is a long established and official recognition by the Church. HOWEVER, this should NOT be understood as Mary taking the role of a consort deity. She is not a consort goddess of God.

Mary's role as Queen of Heaven is understood in the context of the Davidic Kingdom. In the Davidic Kingdom (as many ancient Kingdoms) the Queen was not the wife of the King, but rather the mother of the King. There was a specific, official role for the Queen Mother in the court of the Davidic Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven, with Jesus as King is the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom. In the Kingdom of Heaven, Mary is the Queen Mother and she fulfills that archetypal role from the Davidic Kingdom.

Many Catholics speak of Mary as Co-redemptrix and Co-mediatrix, with Jesus but again these must not be understood to place Mary on an even plane or an even role with Jesus.

Mary herself IS redeemed by Jesus, thus she cannot ever be on the same level as the sole Redeemer Jesus Christ. This again is a common confusion from the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. We believe that Mary was preserved from original Sin and it's effects, but this was still an act of Redemption and Grace.

When Mary is spoken of as Co-redemptrix and Co-mediatrix this must be understood as defining a special, but still secondary role in the economy of grace.

Mary is given these special roles because she participates in Jesus' work of redemption in a way that no other human being has, or could. But it is ultimately still Jesus' work.

While these ideas are not formalized as Dogma's yet, they are also not fringe Catholic teachings. They are, however, very easily misunderstood.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Hello!

I started going to a Charimatic Catholic church and I like it but I have some questions about things I don't quite understand, namely worship towards saints and Virgin Mary. Please, don't think I want to start an argument or a fight, I just don't understand exactly what does worshipping, for eg, Virgen Mary implies? Do you think she can make miracles? Do you pray to her as you pray for Jesus? Do you think she is a mediator between you and God?

I would really appreciate some answers about this :).

Thanks a lot!

We do not worship Mary or the Saints. Worship is due only to God.
We venerate, or honor the Saints because they are exemplars of Holiness and Grace.
We give Mary the highest honor of any Saint because she is unique in God's plan of salvation and plays a special role in God's plans.

Mary and the Saints work miracles by intercession. In other words, Mary and the Saints pray to God, and God answers them by doing miracles. This is exactly the same is if a person on earth prayed for something an a miracle happened. Like Moses parting the Red Sea, or Elijah raising someone from the dead. People say that Moses and Elijah worked miracles, but really it was God who did the Miracle, Moses and Elijah just asked God to do it.

In the general Catholic view, Mary has a special role in God's plan of salvation that includes her 'mediating' graces that God gives to us. This does NOT mean that we believe Mary is a Mediator in the same way that Jesus is. Jesus alone earned our redemption and the gift of grace.

However, as Christians we all have the job of being "little Christs" (which is literally what "Christian" means). Thus we all mediate in that we go to God on behalf of our friends and loved ones, and we all pray for them and ask God to good things for them, etc. All of the saints are mediators in this sense. However, Mary has a special role here because she is the gateway through which Jesus entered the world. God set up the plan of salvation such that redemption and grace would be earned by Jesus, but that Jesus himself would enter the world through Mary and her saying "yes" to God.

This was done deliberately to reverse the fall of Adam and Eve. Adam is the one who ultimately bears the responsibility of the fall, just as Jesus is the one who won salvation for us. But Adam's choice to sin was facilitated by Eve giving him the fruit. Eve said no to God, and in so doing, she prompted Adam to fall.

Just as Jesus is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve. Just like the first Eve became the gateway of Adam's fall, the New Eve, by saying "yes" to God, became the gateway through which Redemption would come.

Mary also has a special role in Jesus' Kingdom. She fulfills the role of the Queen Mother. The role of the Queen Mother was to advocate for the people.

This role of Mary is not a restriction placed upon us. It should not be understood as saying "we can't go to Jesus or to God, we must go to Mary instead." Rather it is a gift to us to help us go to Jesus and God the Father in a more perfect way. She does not stand in our way, she helps us prepare and ushers us in. She wants you to go into the presence of Jesus more than you want to go in.
 
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Vicomte13

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While it is certainly possible for Catholics to have improper views and attitudes towards Mary, the terms and ideas you present here are often misunderstood by protestants.

All Catholics, as far as I'm aware, view Mary as the Queen of Heaven. This is a long established and official recognition by the Church. HOWEVER, this should NOT be understood as Mary taking the role of a consort deity. She is not a consort goddess of God.

Mary's role as Queen of Heaven is understood in the context of the Davidic Kingdom. In the Davidic Kingdom (as many ancient Kingdoms) the Queen was not the wife of the King, but rather the mother of the King. There was a specific, official role for the Queen Mother in the court of the Davidic Kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven, with Jesus as King is the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom. In the Kingdom of Heaven, Mary is the Queen Mother and she fulfills that archetypal role from the Davidic Kingdom.

Many Catholics speak of Mary as Co-redemptrix and Co-mediatrix, with Jesus but again these must not be understood to place Mary on an even plane or an even role with Jesus.

Mary herself IS redeemed by Jesus, thus she cannot ever be on the same level as the sole Redeemer Jesus Christ. This again is a common confusion from the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. We believe that Mary was preserved from original Sin and it's effects, but this was still an act of Redemption and Grace.

When Mary is spoken of as Co-redemptrix and Co-mediatrix this must be understood as defining a special, but still secondary role in the economy of grace.

Mary is given these special roles because she participates in Jesus' work of redemption in a way that no other human being has, or could. But it is ultimately still Jesus' work.

While these ideas are not formalized as Dogma's yet, they are also not fringe Catholic teachings. They are, however, very easily misunderstood.

I agree with everything you wrote.

My goodness! Look at all of these Catholics here AGREEING with each other on really subtle and difficult points.

You might even think that - GASP! *SHUDDER!* - we actually UNDERSTAND our religion! Nah, THAT can't be. We need the Protestants to tell us what we mean. Thank goodness they are so eager to "help". Otherwise what WOULD we do? (Probably not spend so much time on bible-bashing and get on with putting up another hospital, a few schools, and laying down more irrigation pipe somewhere in Africa - O the humanity! All of these useless works that merely extend human lives by decades and give hope, but that will count for nothing at our final judgment...according to some.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I agree with everything you wrote.
Miracles DO happen. :)

By the way, Denisse, the original poster here seems to have never posted again in Christian Forums. So I think it might be good to offer up some prayer for her, that all go well for her that God bless her and keep her, that she grow in her faith in the Lord.

And maybe also we can keep this thread in mind as a source for information about Mary's role in the Church and the faith. The posts here not like they probably would have been in other nooks and crannies of this Christian Forums thing. Thanks everyone for keeping it a good thread.
 
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Vicomte13

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Miracles DO happen. :)

By the way, Denisse, the original poster here seems to have never posted again in Christian Forums. So I think it might be good to offer up some prayer for her, that all go well for her that God bless her and keep her, that she grow in her faith in the Lord.
Amen.
 
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Vicomte13

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For God to speak to us directly, we would have to audibly hear his voice.

And that may be more than we can handle.

I have. It's not more than we can handle. Of course he was not booming above the wind from a fiery mountaintop in a voice heard by hundreds of thousands, just a conversational tone. I think what the Israelites heard was pretty terrifying. Imagine the thunder going off in a terrific storm, and every clap of thunder and stroke of lightning had the sky speaking clear, booming sentences directed at us below.

The Hebrews were PARTICULARLY stiff necked. I think that would have been enough to cause most people to fly right for a long, long time.
 
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Vicomte13

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In all fairness, part of the Torah, specifically Deuteronomy 17:8-15, states that if an item of law is too difficult to render in some case, to take it to the the levites or the 70 elders/judges (the sanhedron) for resolution. Go neither to the right nor left. AND if anyone disobeys them, KILL THEM so that all Israel shall be afraid. That means, for example, that Torah will say not to work on Sabbath, but what is work? Israel had to go to the Judges for the answer to the specifics, and what they said became binding.

Jesus BACKED UP the authority of Oral Torah in Matthew 23:1-2 when he 1. upheld the authority of the Pharisees to interpret Law (they sit on the seat of Moses, and 2. stated to his Jewish disciples to do and observe EVERYTHING they tell you. That "everything" included Oral Torah. He again supports Oral Torah in Matthew 23:23 in his discussion of the Spice Tax, which is Oral Law, when he tells the Pharisees to observe the basics of the Torah first, and then observe the Spice Tax, IOW do BOTH Torah and Oral Torah.

What we can learn from this is that these Oral Interpretations of Law, this case law, is not the same as adding or subtracting from the Law.

Fair enough. Where I am going with this is somewhere a little different, and important for the endless debates among Christians. I am trying to bring a point of clarity.

Jesus says that nothing can be added to the Law. He's just repeating YHWH. I will grant and warrant that your point about going to the Levites is correct, for that is indeed what God said to do. But that did not authorize the Levites to, for example, decide that, because all meat has some trace of blood in it, that therefore the prohibition against eating blood meant that all of Israel was required to forever be vegetarian. That would be changing the Law.

Here's where this bites down, and I think this is really, really important because I see so many Christians right on these boards doing just exactly this. YHWH stated who the covenant was with, and what they got if they followed it. It was the Hebrews who came out of Sinai, who circumcised themselves and who kept the Law, all of it (to the best of their abilities anyway) - they were the human half of the covenant. The divine half was YHWH. And what did he promise them if they obeyed the Law? Eternal life with God in Heaven? No. There isn't a word of that in there. He promised them a farm in Israel, which they would keep in security and prosperity, and have many children under their vines. The law was specific, the targets of the Law were specific, and what those people were promised under the Law is specific.

During that time period, some of my ancestors were Sami, living way up above the Arctic Circle in Fennoscandia and Karelia, where the Long Night is 70 days long, and the Long Day in summer is almost 90. When God boomed out those Ten Commandments from atop Sinai as the Hebrews quailed in terror, was he giving law to my ancestors in the Lappland? Was he telling them they had to leave their homeland forever because a Sabbath falling upon the Long Night or the Long Day meant death? Was God ruling a sixth of the world uninhabitable, despite having previously commanded to fill all the land and subdue it all?

No. He was talking to Hebrews, and giving them special laws that would apply to them in Israel, the land he had prepared for them.

He was not declaring Karelia off limits to human habitation, nor requiring the abandonment of Petsamo. He wasn't talking to the Sami at all. He WOULD talk to the Sami, and everybody else in the world, and he WOULD eventually make a covenant with them, and with all people everywhere, but THAT would come through his Son, Jesus, 2000 years later. At Sinai, God was giving a law to the Hebrews, for them to live under in Israel. It was tailored for the conditions of Israel, not for the whole world. The sacrifices for sin - these were for the cleansing of the israelites in Israel. They were never a method for the Sami to cleanse themselves of their sins. We know this because God addressed the Israelites, them specifically, over and over again - even called the sacrifice invalid if it were not made by the descendants of one single man.

Consider the thrice-yearly pilgrimages to the place of the altar, required by the Law. That rule effectively ruled the Americas, East Asia and Southern Africa perpetually uninhabitable until the age of the jet plane. Nobody could make that trajectory back and forth three times a year from any of the even slightly more distant places. Nobody could have done that even from Italy or Iran, without completely surrendering all hope of settled agriculture and simply spending one's time on the road back and forth. Such a rule in little Israel made sense. It does not make sense when the circle is extended.

The truth is, the Law - the Torah - was not given to the world. It was given to the Hebrews - just them. It was not a Law FOR the entire world. The most important laws - against murder, against adultery, against lying and theft - had already been given by God to the world. Even though the Bible only specifically references, in Genesis, the giving of the law against shedding man's blood, men across four cultures - the Egyptian Pharaoh, the Canaanite Abimelek, the Abrahamites, and the Mesopotamians all, in Genesis, show knowledge of the wrongness of adultery, of lying or of theft.

God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve in the spiritual part of the day, and he talked with them. The Bible does not report everything God ever said to men. The Old Testament is focused on God's interaction with one people: the Abrahamites who became the Hebrews, who became the Israelites, who became the Jews. It's not the history of the whole world (though it impinges on it). And it's not the history of God giving the world it's Law at Mt. Sinai. He gave a law, a detailed one, to the Hebrews at Sinai. It was that law, that covenant, that turned the Hebrew refugees into Israelites. It is the Hebrew covenant, the promises and laws of an agreement between two specific parties.

The rest of the world cannot be ADDED TO that covenant. That is not what Jesus was about. He made a brand NEW covenant, with significantly different laws, for a different purpose. The Torah was made between YHWH and a tribe, but the New Covenant is between Jesus and individuals only. The Torah contains ritual laws of cleanliness, limitations on food, and a method of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of the Israelites. But the New Covenant has no unclean foods, and the method of being forgiven one's sins is not sacrifice, but rather, forgiving others their sins.

YHWH of the Torah commanded the Jews to place no god before him, but having begotten Jesus and sent him on his mission, the Father (YHWH?) spoke from the sky (as YHWH did at Sinai), and said "This is my beloved Son, listen to HIM." And HE never told the world "obey the Torah". He said "Follow me."

He told the Jews, under the Law, that the Law would not change until the end of the world. Note that that means that, until the end of the Law, the only promise under the Law was a secure farm in Israel. But Jesus offers eternal life under the New Covenant, which is "Eat my flesh, drink my blood (very unkosher things!), do unto others as you would have do unto you, follow me and forgive as you would be forgiven, love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all." It's a new deal entirely, one that applies to Sami as much as Jew. It isn't an adding on to the old thing. It's new wine in new bottles, not new wine in an old bottle.

None of this is to denigrate Jews, or the Torah, at all!
But it IS to say that those Christians who strive mightily to see Jesus as releasing them from the Law of Sinai err greatly. He didn't. They weren't under it in the first place unless they're Jews.

My Sami ancestors didn't gain a Sabbath that would have driven them from their homeland, nor a prohibition against eating the blood and fat of walruses and seals that constitutes such a major part of the diet of the extreme north. What they gained is a Savior, and a new law.

It is not respecting the Torah to pretend that it applies, or ever did apply, to Gentiles. It doesn't. And it didn't.

The same God gave the Torah as begat Jesus, so there is overlap, of course, but much of the overlap is in laws that are already visible before Sinai.

I think that people need to properly respect what the Torah is, and not misappropriate it or pretend that it is something it is not. Because if the Torah is forced upon Gentile Christians, it makes them all hypocrites, and that's bad, obviously.
 
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Open Heart

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But that did not authorize the Levites to, for example, decide that, because all meat has some trace of blood in it, that therefore the prohibition against eating blood meant that all of Israel was required to forever be vegetarian.
Yes, the Judges/Rabbis did have that authority. However, that was not what they ruled.
 
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