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Please Answer: I'm Having Doubts

nonanomanon

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I am only going to substitute a few words in the passages of Zechariah you are referencing, to clear up the context of the material. Then we can talk about the passages briefly:

Original (Zechariah 11:17)
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock!
the sword [shall be] upon his arm
and upon his right eye:
his arm shall be clean dried up
and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Word Substitution (Zechariah 11:17)
Woe to the "Prophet" that leaveth the "Faithful"!
the "Gospel" [shall be] upon his "Work"
and upon his "Testimony":
his "Work" shall be clean dried up
and his "Testimony" shall be utterly darkened.

Original (Zechariah 13:7)
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
and against the man [that is] my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Word Substitution (Zechariah 13:7)
Awake, "Gospel", reprove my "Testimony"
and "Reprove", the "Testimony" of my "brother",
saith the LORD of hosts: "Bless the Prophet", and "Cast out the Unclean Spirits"
and "Then will the Lord", "Bless the Congregation"

The subject is not Christ, or the Antichrist (Ancient of Days, "Moses and Elias"). The subject is the "walk of faith", of someone that is separating themselves from "Blasphemy and Dead Work", that does not produce spiritual truth. You referenced a religious text that is designed to produce only "Blasphemy and Dead Work" ... there is a greek concordance, maybe some of the new age bibles, you would be better off referencing next time. (I was going to reply a bit earlier, but given the nature of the question and misquotes being made, I figured, that I would just come back later) (The "Shepard" would be the "Body of Believers", or simply the "walk of faith" we make with the gospel).
 
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Chicken Little

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OH dear I have no problem with what he was talking about in a general way. what I call "witch burning" is
so you got alot out of it.. I think that is great!

but my complaint was he/ she / who ever can have a study about concepts and not name people. Because you can't prove what was being taught by God and what wasn't, just because it failed in his eyes..
to write off a whole man ministry is wrong. I personally saw most of the times and ages that he is condemning not from the same perspective you have . and truth is that if those men and their crews had not ventured out there you wouldn't have even known to pray for or even ask for those things to happen that sets us free. no one remembers The church of even 50 years ago didn't have a clue.. they were rolling in the isles and or doing snakes.. at best to prove
" the spirit" or worse things .. and all of
"science" which used to be the church and still is Catholicism / Romanism/ centralism/ control for 2000 years it has been in denial of most all spiritual concepts , well maybe those they thought they had or thought they could control or what they deemed 'safe' enough. because no one knew anything about most of those subjects except maybe how to burn people at the stake or put them on a rack to 'deliver' them.
This guy who ever it is , I didn't look . because i'm talking concepts .S/ He needs to remember hind site is 20/20 and give grace and some mercy for the stumbling and bumblings of GOD"s little children with all poopy diapers, but who's desire was to do what Jesus and Elijah did " which was to set the captives free and to bind up the broken hearted " and to grow in the knowledge of Jesus and his life and actions. it clearly states these things will follow those who believe and for nearly 1500 to 1800 years that hasn't happened.
Those kids who love to be a tool in his hands to set real people free from real issues was the motivation from what I saw, though it didn't work out that way often .

but what would we known to do and not to do if we had to wait for folks who can only see backwards to lead us ?

or who don't have the mercy and grace to allow failure ?


We're just His children trying to help Big daddy with bigger Issues than we can even understand probably .
but hind site is 20/20 and the Elijah's who can teach an Elishah are very very very very few and even farther in between.
burning folks at the stake is easy , cheap or worse. every Atheist on this list is advanced expert at accusations and would love nothing more than to try it..
But what few "leaders" do do is allowing His kids to do what only his kids can do by the rights he gave them to do it , for now , the failures and all! it all is priceless because that is what his death paid for and bought! it bought a covering for us . right? not the right to 'sin' but the right to fail at our attempts at being useful to him. He only cares that we try and put those talents(10/ 5 and 1 talents , the parable) to work and not bury them in fear of failure! because he gets and creates the increase anyway.

I am talking against concepts in the way he presented his accusations against individuals . ok? we can talk generalize concepts , In the same way Murder is wrong but do we back bite Abraham ? God still asked Abraham to make a fool of himself and go and act like he was going to offer his son as a sacrifice. didn't we all learned so much by that
"failure" ? really was it a failure ? aren't we glad he didn't succeed ? aren't we glad he had faith through that process ?


if any of us thinks that we are getting out of this deal and not look like a foolish child that ain't going to happen! get the diapers ready boys and girls.. I thank some of those ministries for some of those "failures" . because we all learned boat loads of what not to do. and by that we also learned what to do. Besides just sitting back and mocking and accusing like those who are way to common on these lists, people who can only take someone no where anyone wants to be and hasn't already been before and don't want to go back again .
 
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ebedmelech

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That's great Amina! Please realize this...God is NOT going to give you all the answers right away. Some things you will recognize through the Holy Spirit right away....some things you won't have the full understanding of right away...and some things you will not understand at all, and will have to wait on God's timing to understand.

We grow with grace!
 
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Berean777

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Context is very important and when determining context you need to read on further to gauge the chronology of events that the context is pointing to. It is like a before and after shot. The shepherd in Zechariah 11 is the before take/shot and the shepherd in Zechariah 13 is the after take or re-take so to speak.

First the worthless spiritually blind shepherd that God placed to take care of the flock is removed because he became too righteous in his own eyes, hence the symbol used is that of the right eye. His works which symbolises his right arm became unfruitful to God.

Let us look at those versus closely:

Zechariah 11:15-17
And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
The instruments of a foolish shepherd are those of a wayward one who has not fulfilled his duties and obligations to God as part of the conditional agreement set out in the contract/covenant.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land,
God gives us a before take of the first shepherd that he had established in the literal land of Jerusalem/Israel to apply the clauses in the conditional agreement set out in the contract/covenant.
which shall not visit those that be cut off,
This foolish shepherd that was supposed to deliver God's message to new adherents keeps it all to himself and doesn't bring in other new members to add to God's flock.
neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
He doesn't care for the needs of the people but is there primarily as an instrument of punitive punishment to those who don't follow his instructions. You may have come across cult leaders who fit this personified authority, who tend to lash out at people who did not obey them.
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock!
Idol shepherd is one who does nothing for God and voids his contractual agreement by being left out from it and also prevents the flock from being saved through the conditional contract/covenant.
the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
This statement implies right arm meaning works and his right eye meaning his righteousness in his own eyes/mind shall be made desolate/baren void of fruit to God and his right eye that symbolises his righteousness will be his delusion to not being able to know that God is against him, yet he in his mind thinks that God is with him and gives him authority to do what he has been doing all along.


The close match of this enterprise shepherd is the levitical old covenant enterprise, because it is the before act that God places in the land of Israel before bringing forth the faithful shepherd mentioned in Zechariah 13 to usher in the new covenant/agreement.

Jesus many times stated that your house is made onto you desolate and many times Jesus would rebuke the Pharisaical system of its times that it doesn't do squat for God and every convert that they think they made, they are making twice the child of the devil. These charges being made by Jesus, who is God and many more point to the old levitical authority as the foolish shepherd that didn't bother preaching and bringing in other nations and pretty much kept everything to themselves. They would be very harsh on their own people as was shown when Jesus did miracles on the sabbath. They by virtue of their blind right eye became their delusional minds, that they became righteous in their own eyes/mind. Jesus charged them by saying even though you think you have salvation by reading the scriptures, in your own blind right eye/mind, you are far removed as a shepherd from God in your desertion and by this God considers you as having mutinied, meaning having left the flock that God left you in charge of.

The evidence between Zech 11 and Zech 13 that chronologically points to the before and after take from the foolish first shepherd to the faithful second shepherd is the following versus:

Zechariah 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.


Jesus Christ of the New Testament is the stumbling/ burdensome stone for all people especially this foolish shepherd and his flock the Jewish peoples who rejected Jesus Christ and continue to do so to this very day as a nation.

Matthew 21:42-46
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

1 Corinthians 1:24
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,


Then in Zechariah 12:8 the day came when Jesus Christ defended the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and the house of David shall be as God the Holy Ghost who will dwell in them,
as the angel of the Lord who is the symbol of Christ Jesus before them as the cornerstone that causes unbelievers to stumble.

In Zechariah 12:10 God pours upon the house of David who is the symbol of Christ Jesus, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem who have accepted David Christ Jesus as their King the Holy Spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Jesus Christ whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

All the above prophesy was fulfilled in Christ Jesus and this chronologically provides the before and after shot of the foolish shepherd representing the old levitical authority of the old covenant during the time of Jesus when they had left their posts and abandoned the flock as far as God was concerned in relation to the context of the prophesy in Zechariah.

Now we can understand the second faithful shepherd that comes to replace the apostate shepherd who abandoned God whereby the house of the foolish shepherd was made onto him desolate which was indicated by the statement in Zechariah that his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Your premises in your thread have nothing to do with the prophesy mentioned in Zechariah as this was a prophetic message of the foolish shepherd that was the levitical authority as compared to the faithful shepherd of the new covenant of grace who is Jesus Christ.

Chronology and context must always be considered to fully understand Old Testament prophesies in light of New Testament fulfilment of that prophesy. You need not wonder of to other worldly figures that have no bearing to the inetended context. It is declared that God had originally placed this foolish shepherd in the place called Jerusalem and so he must have been in contract/covenant with God previously before when Jesus came on the scene. This is indicative that the foolish shoe herd before Jesus came, had already broken the conditional contract where it was made null and void and Jesus would emphasis this by telling the Leviticus authority of their time that their house is made onto them desolate.

I will not even need to go into who the shepherd of Zechariah 13 is because that is just clear as daylight.

Zechariah 13:5
But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman for Christ Jesus; for Jesus Christ taught me to keep cattle from my youth.


Zechariah 13:7-9
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
The man that was once God's fellow is the levitical authority that he had originally placed as the first shepherd. This foolish fellow/shepherd of God is used as an instrument to smite the second faithful shepherd Christ Jesus that God brings forth as the replacement to the foolish shepherd. The foolish shepherd is used to scatter the sheep of the faithful shepherd Christ Jesus, as it was in the persecution of the first century church by the hand of the levitical authority headed by Paul of tarsus.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
God is speaking of the many called as flock to the faithful shepherd Christ Jesus that only a third of his flock will be saved. Not all Christians are saved as Jesus stated that many are called but only a few are chosen. The next verse confirms this statement.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
Many are called to the faithful shepherd Christ Jesus and justified by his blood under the new covenant of grace and supplications spoken of in Zechariah 12:10. However many are not cleansed or sanctified by the sanctifying baptismal fire who is the Holy Ghost.


What I have described above is the true chronological context of Zechariah and Islam has no place in this prophesy.

God is simply saying it started off by the first shepherd who was once his fellow by administering the old covenant contractual agreement, then once the foolish shepherd defaulted, he was kicked out and replaced by the faithful servant Christ Jesus who was brought forth as God's replacement to the old covenant by the instituting of the new covenant of grace and supplications and they will look upon him whom they have pierced for the atonement of their sins as the many Christians who are husbandman/witnesses to the bridegroom Christ Jesus. The church in itself is the bride of Christ,
 
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Yorkshire Lee

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Hi Amina, I know this is an old post, but I have signed up to this site in hope that I may speak with you about this very important subject regarding the Dajjal, and how he relates to Jesus Christ of the Bible. I think we may be able to help each other.

Please inbox me if this reaches you.
God bless, Lee
 
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