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Piltdown and the search for Human Ancestors

What scientific evidence demonstrates man's ape ancestory

  • Fossil evidence and the many transitional available

  • Biology and genetics as represented in scientific publications

  • Mutiple disciples in science that support it conclusivly

  • The evidence does not confirm a common ancestor, it conclusivly disproves it (elaborate at will)


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shernren

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The one part I don't get is:

Now, if we assume that we have positive selective pressure for just one specific mutation in this gene, we will need 50 million births to get that one, specific mutation we want, or 500 generations with a population of 100,000.

Can you exhibit the calculation you used to obtain that figure? Also, the mutation rate is 10^-8 per nucleotide per generation, which with a human genome length of 3.2 billion nucleotides comes up to 32 mutations per generation. And this is just the substitution rate, as far as I can see. Since your earlier model effectively used a rate of 17.5 mutations (after your "time dilation" factor of 10), you shouldn't have a problem with the new one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate
 
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JGL53

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mark kennedy quote: “…it sure has me wondering what people really find persuasive. Is the voice of the crowd or the power of the actual evidence?”

- For those who understand evolution, it is thus understanding of the evidence. There may be those who don’t understand it but go along because they figure if consensus science says it is so, it must be so.

As for belief in YEC or other forms of sheer magic, it is mainly based in ignorance, lack of proper science education, and being persuaded by charismatic orators who appeal to the persons inferiority complex disguised as a grandiose self-image (the “I ain’t kin to no ape.” type of ridiculousness).

Tocis quote: “The mountain of evidence supporting the evolutionary history of mankind is so huge it seems to dwarf Mt Everest.

'nuff said.”

- But if a person is ignorant of all the evidence and has a negative emotional reaction to the fact of evolution, then what’s to be done to bring such people up to speed and to a more grounded psychological self-image?

You will notice that no highly religious christian or christian group ever spends much time on Einstein’s theory of (time and space) relativity, the germ theory of disease, atomic theory, astrophysical theory about the life of stars, Krebs cycle, or literally thousands of other scientific theories that are no more or less demonstrations of the basic nature of reality than does biological evolution.

One thus sees that this “disbelief” in evolution is not based in scientific understanding of any degree – it is just an emotional reaction to an idea that they “feel” is insulting to their sense of self.

So – again I ask, what is to be done?
 
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tocis

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One thus sees that this “disbelief” in evolution is not based in scientific understanding of any degree – it is just an emotional reaction to an idea that they “feel” is insulting to their sense of self.

So – again I ask, what is to be done?

I don't think you really can do much to help one who is so totally misinformed and hyperemotional about science that she rejects it almost instinctively. Unless she already harbors some secret doubts, anything you say will fit into the thought structure of The Grand Conspiracy(TM) for her. The best you can do is to keep presenting the facts, in hopes that some day she'll start to do some thinking outside of her mind's box. And that's a very tiring task. I know from my own sad experience, and I'm sure you do too.

What's best in the long run, methinks, is to provide a decent education for the next generation. Education is still the best weapon against that kind of overzealous propaganda nonsense. Hard to believe any creationist once you 1. know what science really says and 2. see that the creationist, as always, has no idea what she's talking about.
 
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LightHorseman

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Re the likelihood of mutation...

Everyone with Down's syndrome has a mutation that neither of thier parents had.

And thats a fairly obvious one... so consider how much more likely it is that anyone else has less obvious, or even non phenotype demonstrating mutation somewhere in the genome?
 
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mark kennedy

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Or as Aron would ask it, "What is an ape?"

Ed

In the new definition for the classification of Hominae the cerebral rubicon was diminished in signifigance. Actually, dispite the most glaring taxonomic trait being three times larger then chimpanzees evolutionists are content to pass us off as apes. No rational basis for it but lets pretend that all the evidence is pointing to it.
 
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TeddyKGB

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In the new definition for the classification of Hominae the cerebral rubicon was diminished in signifigance. Actually, dispite the most glaring taxonomic trait being three times larger then chimpanzees evolutionists are content to pass us off as apes. No rational basis for it but lets pretend that all the evidence is pointing to it.
Amazing that you have only this one record yet you can't keep it from breaking.
 
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mark kennedy

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mark kennedy quote: “…it sure has me wondering what people really find persuasive. Is the voice of the crowd or the power of the actual evidence?”


Not a single evidence is used here to illustrate your point. Want to talk about the actual evidence then tell me how a gene highly conserved for 310 million years (having only 2 substitutions) suddenly accumulates 18.

"Forty-nine regions, which the team called human accelerated regions (HARs), rose to the top of the list. Surprisingly, only two of these regions code for proteins. Instead, the majority of the regions tend to be located near genes that are involved in regulating the function of genes. Furthermore, 12 of the regions are adjacent to genes involved in the development of the brain.

The Nature paper looks in depth at the region that has undergone the most change in the human lineage, which the researchers called HAR1 (for human accelerated region 1). Only two of the region's 118 bases changed in the 310 million years separating the evolutionary lineages of the chicken and the chimp. Incredibly, since the human lineage separated from that of the chimp, 18 of the 118 nucleotides have changed. This region "stood out," said Pollard."
http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2006/0...fast_track.html

That's the evidence now what is the explanation?

The evidence has been misrepresented again and again. They say we are 99% chimpanzee, it turns out it's more like 95% counting indels. They say the evolution of the human brain is due to normative natural selection gradually accumulating favored traits. Then we find out that we are talking about hundreds if not thousands of mutations in hundreds if not thousand of genes. Modern genetics tells us that the vast majority of mutations result in no effect whatsoever and the vast majority of those that have an effect are deleterious. There has never been a beneficial effect directly observed or demonstrated from a mutation in a neural gene. Still, with that mountain of evidence you still have the nerve to pontificate about a science you know nothing about?

Do youself a favor, the next time you want to preach looking at the evidence. Take 5 minutes and get a clue what evidence is involved.
 
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mark kennedy

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Amazing that you have only this one record yet you can't keep it from breaking.

Amazing, the biggest distinction between men and apes and not one of you have a genetic basis for it. Cliches, clutch phrases, circular logic, arguments from authority, personal remarks galore and petty sniping. Where is all this compeling evidence when you need it to show a demonstrated mechanism for the greatest giant leap in nature since the Cambrain Explosion?

You forget Teddy, I read the peer reviewed scientific articles you prize so highly. If your postition is based on anything remotely scientific then there isn't a shred of evidence for that in your posts.
 
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Chalnoth

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In the new definition for the classification of Hominae the cerebral rubicon was diminished in signifigance. Actually, dispite the most glaring taxonomic trait being three times larger then chimpanzees evolutionists are content to pass us off as apes. No rational basis for it but lets pretend that all the evidence is pointing to it.
Of course there is. It's called common ancestry.
 
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Chalnoth

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You forget Teddy, I read the peer reviewed scientific articles you prize so highly. If your postition is based on anything remotely scientific then there isn't a shred of evidence for that in your posts.
Curious, then, how your conclusions differ so dramatically from the conclusions of the papers you are reading.

And there is no problem with the HAR1 gene. The rate at which it changed is well within the mutation rates of humans. Obviously the difference between us and chickens is related to different selective pressures.
 
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mark kennedy

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Except serve as evidence for common ancestry for chimps and humans.

I really don't know how you figure. Most of the fossil evidence for our ape ancestory comes from central Africa. Paleontology lays claim to thousands of fossils of human ancestors but virtually none of the apes. This is truely odd since central Africa is the only place in the world where apes life.

It would be expect that were you to find another fossil somewhere else it would be human rather then ape, if your a Creationist I mean.

Can you see the problem with this statement by the Smithsonian Insitute about Turkana Boy?

"Earlier humans had roughly the same body size as modern chimpanzee. Yet this immature male had already surpassed a height of five feet at the time of his death, and probably would have attained a height of 6 feet and a weight of roughly 150 lbs."

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/WT15k.html

Do they expect us to believe that chimpanzees from 9-12 years old stand 5 foot tall, weigh 150 lbs with a cranial capacity nearly 900cc? This was found in Southern Africa (Hadar) not in Central Africa where apes actually live, which leds us to future conclude that this is nothing more then an antideluving human child.

Something else that might be of interest. You remember Lucy right, the little ape they paraded as one of our ancestors for so long. They like to place her at least 5 million years out because she was fully bipedal. Did you know that they actually tested the bed she came out of once and found that it was actually about 900,000 years old?

Here is the best part, Lucy was buried beneath some kind of volcanic ash which is why she was so well preserved. Her contemporaries died, in mass, but in a different way. That drowned in somekind of a flood apparently:

"Michael Bush, one of Don Johanson's students, made another major discovery in 1975: near Lucy, on the other side of the hill, he found the "First Family", including 200 fragments of A. afarensis. The site of the findings is now known as "site 333", by a count of fossil fragments uncovered, such as teeth and pieces of jaw. 13 individuals were uncovered and all were adults, with no injuries caused by carnivores. All 13 individuals seemed to have died at the same time, thus Don concluded that they might have been killed instantly from a flash flood"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_afarensis

Piltdown survived was considered actual scientific evidence for 50 years. The actual evidence is telling us something very different then the evolutionist would have us believe. As a matter of fact it has been my experience that evolutionists change the subject when genetics and fossils come up. The evidence does not support their case much at all.



You can handwave and tell everyone how your incredulity won't allow you to accept brain growth, but the evidence is right there in the skulls of Austral and Homo fossils as well as the genes which you reject "just because."

I do look at the evidence and it is telling me that 2 1/2 million years ago our ancestors doubled their cranial capacity overnight. The leap from Homo Habilis (ape) to Homo erectus (human) is something I focus on in great detail in my posts. For whatever reason, you don't like actually looking at the evidence, instead you rely on generalities and clutch phrases.

That's great, but it doesn't mean you can start a thread about common ancestry and just ignore or handwave away all the other evidence that is out there including ERVs, pseudogenes and Chromosome 2.

Ok, ERVs would seem to be polymorphisms of somekind. They appear to make up 10% of the human genome and by some coincidence share common nucleotides with the Chimpanzee sequence. I don't see what this nonfunctioning coincidence has to do with anything or why you care about pseudogenes.

A Chromosome 2 fusion would account for one pericentric inversion. There are 8 in all that total 20 million nucloetides, and that one is well into the millions. This happens without a single gene being damaged. All you are interested in is ancedotal evidence that is coincidental and does not offer a single clue what mechanism evolved the human brain. Science is about having a demonstrated mechanism or directly observation, you have neither.

I did look at the evidence with you and found it fascinating that you would rather talk about Lock Ness monsters then the actual fossils. You are happy to assume we have an ancestor in common with chimps but you don't have a clue how a primate brain triples in size. Our brain is 6 times what it should be for other mammals and three time what it is for apes. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and I am seeing less and less actual proof over time.

You don't have a demonstrated mechanism, do you know how I know that you don't have one? Every single researcher that has actually looked into this admits it in no uncertain terms based on the evidence, not dispite it.
 
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mark kennedy

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Curious, then, how your conclusions differ so dramatically from the conclusions of the papers you are reading.

Really? What exactly do you think I have been reading that agrees with your conclusions?

And there is no problem with the HAR1 gene. The rate at which it changed is well within the mutation rates of humans. Obviously the difference between us and chickens is related to different selective pressures.


That's the magic word isn't it, natural selection. When you don't have an explanation just say, natural selection did it. Functional contraints allow only 2 substitutions for 310 million years, which means in 10 million years 1 or 0 would be expected by chance. There are 18 which means that at a minimum there are 6 amino acids effected depending on where the substitutions occur.

Yes it is a problem, all of the researchers are admitting this freely, except to creationists.

Human evolution is characterized by a dramatic increase in brain size and complexity. To probe its genetic basis, we examined the evolution of genes involved in diverse aspects of nervous system biology.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15620360

When we compare our brain to those of other animals, the first thing that strikes us is its size. Human brains weigh on average 1,300 grams; a squirrel brain weighs six grams. Some of this difference is because, as larger animals, we need more brain to run our bodies. However, the brains of our nearest relatives, the great apes, weigh only 300–500 grams, even though their body size is similar to ours

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030050

No explanation for how this is possible just a shrill insistance that the evidence is on your side. There is no evidence that this is even possible and yet you insist that we must have a common ancestor with the chimpanzee.
 
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mark kennedy

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Of course there is. It's called common ancestry.

It's called the a priori assumption of a single common ancestor. The evidence falls in under ad hoc conjecture with a big carpet to sweep all the lack of genuine evidence under, the natural selection magic carpet. One second you don't have a genetic basis and then you simply say *natural selection* and *poof!* the problem goes away. It's like magic.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Amazing, the biggest distinction between men and apes and not one of you have a genetic basis for it. Cliches, clutch phrases, circular logic, arguments from authority, personal remarks galore and petty sniping. Where is all this compeling evidence when you need it to show a demonstrated mechanism for the greatest giant leap in nature since the Cambrain Explosion?

You forget Teddy, I read the peer reviewed scientific articles you prize so highly. If your postition is based on anything remotely scientific then there isn't a shred of evidence for that in your posts.
Show me a HAR researcher who thinks the human brain defies current evolutionary mechanisms. Go on, show me.

Oh, that's right; your layman's incredulity is plenty sufficent. You just intuitively know that the HAR1 mutations are unattainable by naturalistic evolution. You don't need any actual evidence that that is the case.

No, that's not it. You're using deductive logic, eh? Human-ape common ancestry is false, therefore HAR1 didn't develop via evolution.
 
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TeddyKGB

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It's called the a priori assumption of a single common ancestor.
Perhaps if you keep saying this, you'll come to believe it yourself.

That'll make one of you.
The evidence falls in under ad hoc conjecture with a big carpet to sweep all the lack of genuine evidence under, the natural selection magic carpet. One second you don't have a genetic basis and then you simply say *natural selection* and *poof!* the problem goes away. It's like magic.
"Lack of genuine evidence" like ERVs, which you comically dismiss as "coincidences"?
 
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Chalnoth

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That's the magic word isn't it, natural selection. When you don't have an explanation just say, natural selection did it. Functional contraints allow only 2 substitutions for 310 million years, which means in 10 million years 1 or 0 would be expected by chance. There are 18 which means that at a minimum there are 6 amino acids effected depending on where the substitutions occur.

Yes it is a problem, all of the researchers are admitting this freely, except to creationists.
It's an interesting question, but it isn't a problem at all for evolution or common descent. Natural selection isn't a "magic word," it's one of the primary driving forces behind evolution.

I'm sure that many scientists are very interested indeed to discover precisely what changed in our ancestors and their environment that allowed the quick mutation of this particular gene. But I don't believe that any of them think that it is damaging to the theory of evolution.

No explanation for how this is possible just a shrill insistance that the evidence is on your side. There is no evidence that this is even possible and yet you insist that we must have a common ancestor with the chimpanzee.
I don't insist. The evidence does. ERV evidence is the single most compelling, I think, but there's also evidence from the fossil record and other genetic evidence. These scientists you're quoting all are as good as stating that humans and chimpanzees have the same ancestors.

The question was settled so long ago, however, that they don't even bother to breach the question any longer: it's over and done with. And more than that, their current research hinges on the idea that humans descended from apes, which means that there would be no reason at all for it to make sense if humans did not.
 
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USincognito

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I did look at the evidence with you and found it fascinating that you would rather talk about Lock Ness monsters then the actual fossils.

Oh please. Don't try and rewrite history Mark. The debate is still there for people to read. The topic was Piltdown being a hoax, and I discussed "the Surgeons photo" in the context of the topic.

Just because you didn't understand the the point I was making didn't mean I wasn't making one.

I'll address your other comments when I have more time.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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There has never been a beneficial effect directly observed or demonstrated from a mutation in a neural gene.


for the lurkers who might be interested in following this up.

google
human brain genes sweep

and you will find:
GLUD2
FOXP2
microcephalin and ASPM (abnormal spindle-like microcephaly-associated)
from:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...ssure+sweep&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8
for just one ppt class handout on the issues.
 
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