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Piltdown and the search for Human Ancestors

What scientific evidence demonstrates man's ape ancestory

  • Fossil evidence and the many transitional available

  • Biology and genetics as represented in scientific publications

  • Mutiple disciples in science that support it conclusivly

  • The evidence does not confirm a common ancestor, it conclusivly disproves it (elaborate at will)


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mark kennedy

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A favorite of mine ever since I first heard of it:

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

I can only think of 3 ways to explain the above away:

1. Claim that God intentionally made the human and other-great-ape chromosomes in that way to test our faith, or because you know, a good designer reuses parts. Not that that explains the presence of inactive teleomeres and centromeres, but whatever.

2. Claim that science is always wrong, and thus that all this "evidence" is just proof that scientists always make stuff up to proof their evil worldview.

3. *sticks fingers in ears*

This is from a class with online lessons from IU. It is typical of the way that God as an explanation for anything must be dismissed without even considering what evidence might support it.

"C. SOME POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (Building a Working Hypothesis):
1. They were designed that way.
2. Chromosome 2 split into two (fission) in the ancestral branch (or branches) that produced the apes.
3. Chromosome 2 formed from the joining (fusion) of two shorter chromosomes in an early human
ancestor after the apes branched off.

To suggest “design” as an explanation usually implies a supernatural designer, and since supernatural
forces cannot be reliably tested or disproved (basic requirement for all scientific explanations),
“design” cannot be properly considered as a scientific explanation."

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/c.fus.stu5.pdf

Notice they are not spending a lot of time trying to figure out how adaptive traits nessacary are aquired. There isn't really a whole lot of discussion about what they might have been, let alone conclusive scientific explanations.
 
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TeddyKGB

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That's because it's beside the point, I have noticed a lack of interest in this crucial peice of the puzzle:

"I am very impressed with the number of substitutions on the human lineage compared with other vertebrates. The region is highly conserved: only two bases are different between chimpanzees and chickens. In contrast, there have been 18 substitutions on the human lineage! It's like every other species is driving the same Plymouth Reliant, and humans are driving a Ferrari!"

For 310 million years this gene is highly conserved and then suddenly has 18 substitutions. Why Mystman do you think this happened?
I'm dead sick of seeing you read your own interpretations into scientific articles. Where do the researchers say that HAR evolution is not explained by current models? Where?
 
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mark kennedy

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Oh, and I have to agree with sfs: having evidence that something happens/has happened is something else than knowing how it happen(s)(ed)

Bottom line, no demonstrated mechanism then you have a rational basis for rejecting the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees. You do know that there are more then one rearrangement right? This is supposed to have happened subsequent to the split between chimpanzees and the human line and we are talking about 20 million nucleotides with one rearrangment being 4 million nucleotides in length.

I have evidence that Steve Irwin (RIP) was killed by a stingray, I don't know exactly how it happened (yet). Just because I don't know how it happened, you can't go claiming that it actually was a giant emu.

One thing is for sure, the evidence that he is dead is strong enough. We are also pretty sure that he got stung by a sting ray and there is ample reason to conclude that there are no emus in the ocean. So you have a demonstrated mechanism and factual reporting that is matter of fact. It's easy to draw a rational conclusion that he was indeed killed by a sting ray.

It was a stingray (evidence: news reports). How it happened exactly? Dunno yet.
Humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor (evidence: Human Chromosome #2, amongst others..). How it happened? Dunno yet.

You know that he died and how he died. If you want to take a closer look at the hazards of swimming with sting rays that is easy enough. We don't know enough about biology to conclude that we have a common ancestor with the apes but we are told that we must assume we did. Why? because we can't accept anything but naturalistic causes and that is, in my view, unscientific. Science is supposed to be about what happens in reality and God as a cause should not be rejected automatically.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm dead sick of seeing you read your own interpretations into scientific articles. Where do the researchers say that HAR evolution is not explained by current models? Where?


Your sick of it because you don't have an answer. Let me break it down to you again since you don't like to think this through. For 310 million years a gene 118 nucleotides long has 2 substitutions, then suddenly there are 18. What would be expected is 1 or 0 so the HAR is a big issue and human specific sequences is a real problem for the assumption of a common ancestor. No demonstrated mechanism, no proof.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Your sick of it because you don't have an answer. Let me break it down to you again since you don't like to think this through. For 310 million years a gene 118 nucleotides long has 2 substitutions, then suddenly there are 18. What would be expected is 1 or 0 so the HAR is a big issue and human specific sequences is a real problem for the assumption of a common ancestor. No demonstrated mechanism, no proof.
Stop giving me your arrogant, non-scientist's interpretation, and show me where the problem is. Show me how "we expect X, but we find Y" amounts to "no demonstrated mechanism."
 
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mark kennedy

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Stop giving me your arrogant, non-scientist's interpretation, and show me where the problem is. Show me how "we expect X, but we find Y" amounts to "no demonstrated mechanism."

We expect 1 or 0 substitutions but there are 18 in a gene that is highly conserved and had 2 in 310 million years. You pretend you don't understand what this means or what the problem is but I know better. Science is not taking sides in this as much as you would like for it to. Highly conserved genes do not morph like this and you obviously don't have a demonstrated or directly observed mechanism for this.

If you didn't want this to come up then maybe you should not have brought it up.
 
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mark kennedy

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Mark

Would you care to address my post #41, and state why you think the Cambrian "explosion" would need accelerated evolution to explain it?

I would be glad to, check this out:

"One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93). Studies of modern animals suggest that the sponges that appeared in the late Precambrian, for example, would have required five cell types, whereas the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types. Functionally more complex animals require more cell types to perform their more diverse functions. New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI."


(Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories
By: Stephen C. Meyer Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington November 30, 2005. See The Cambrian information explosion)


The genetic basis for this happening does not exist and the fossil evidence warranting this kind of skepticism is an evident and obvious problem for neodarwinism.
 
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TeddyKGB

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We expect 1 or 0 substitutions but there are 18 in a gene that is highly conserved and had 2 in 310 million years. You pretend you don't understand what this means or what the problem is but I know better. Science is not taking sides in this as much as you would like for it to. Highly conserved genes do not morph like this and you obviously don't have a demonstrated or directly observed mechanism for this.

If you didn't want this to come up then maybe you should not have brought it up.
Show me how "we expect X, but we observe Y" amounts to "no demonstrated mechanism."

Go on, show me.
 
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TeddyKGB

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The genetic basis for this happening does not exist and the fossil evidence warranting this kind of skepticism is an evident and obvious problem for neodarwinism.
Yeah, because 'complex specified information' has a well-documented and robust history of application in biological science.

Oh, wait, no it doesn't.
 
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Baggins

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I would be glad to, check this out:

"One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93). Studies of modern animals suggest that the sponges that appeared in the late Precambrian, for example, would have required five cell types, whereas the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types. Functionally more complex animals require more cell types to perform their more diverse functions. New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI."


(Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories
By: Stephen C. Meyer Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington November 30, 2005. See The Cambrian information explosion)


The genetic basis for this happening does not exist and the fossil evidence warranting this kind of skepticism is an evident and obvious problem for neodarwinism.

As far as I can see there is no evidence in what you have posted that says it is impossible for simple bilateral life forms to have evolved into the Cambrian fauna in 60+ million years.

Especially since you don't know how complex the genome of the 600ma bilateral life form is, it is just compared to later precambrian sponges which can't be considered a direct ancestor of the more complex Cambrian fauna anyway. In fact it seems rather disingenuous to compare sponges to arthropods, when they are very distently related. Plus there appear to be no information on the evolution of the regulatory genome or hox genes, I think we can assume that both of these things would have developed at this time ( the regulatory regions perhaps earlier ) and had a profound effect on the evolution of diverse body plans. These would not need any change in speed of evolution though.

There are plenty of quite complex life forms around 10s of millions of years before the Cambrian, not only bilateria but also Vendobionts ( the ediacaran fauna ), some of which are bilateral as well.

So I ask again, have you any evidence to suggest why simple Bilatera can't evolve into arthropods over 60+ million years?

Because all I see above is an argument that sponges are simple and arthropods are complex. And that would appear to be no answer at all, so this will simply become another one of your arguments from personal incredulity, and therefore worthless.

edit - This paper also appears to come from quasi-rightwing think-tank, rather than a peer reviewed scientific journal as well. Which leads me to believe that they may have some political axe to grind here.

Edit - I also notice that they shave 10 million years off the age of the oldest ediacaran faunas. They don't have up to date information on the oldest bilateral fossils found. Most of the arguments are based around mutation rates of modern animals and make nothing of the fact that evolution of simple bilaterians to complex cambrian faunas would have happened at a time of immense advantage for large phenotypic change ( goldschmidts hopeful monster theory ) at the end of an ice age with subsequent flooding of extensive coastal shelf regions and the creation of a myriad of unexploited niches for the new bilateral multicellular body plan to exploit.

It is one huge argument from incredulity, based mainly on research on modern animals genomes.

methinks I smell rat, oh yes I smell a rat

It could almost have been written by Mark himself, it is a mighty body of work but it gives no reason why the Cambrian fauna couldn't have evolved over 70ma except that a similar explosion couldn't happen ion modern animals.

Well DUH!
 
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Mystman

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That's because it's beside the point, I have noticed a lack of interest in this crucial peice of the puzzle:

"I am very impressed with the number of substitutions on the human lineage compared with other vertebrates. The region is highly conserved: only two bases are different between chimpanzees and chickens. In contrast, there have been 18 substitutions on the human lineage! It's like every other species is driving the same Plymouth Reliant, and humans are driving a Ferrari!"

For 310 million years this gene is highly conserved and then suddenly has 18 substitutions. Why Mystman do you think this happened?

Link? The ferrari comment doesn't sound like something out of a peer-reviewed paper.
 
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Mystman

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Oh, and not that I've been given any context, but say that this place with a bunch of mutations codes for an amino-acid chain.

A possible scenario would be:

Protein A is folded in such a way that almost all mutations lead to a decrease in effeciency.

However, a single possible mutation (the one that happenend in the human line) that increases the effeciency, also opens up a number of other mutations that improve or don't decrease the effeciency.

If for example, a key mutation causes a beta-barrel to be formed, then a number of substitutions in the beta-barrel can take place without major setbacks (as long as the beta-barrel doesn't have to many interactions with other parts of the protein). In the non-beta-barrel-protein, every mutation would alter the shape, and could thus be detrimental.

edit: oh my, I kinda fux0red on the terminology there ^^. Alpha-helices have the side chains on the outside... it's beta-barrels that have many of the side-chains on the inside. Excuse me, it's been a while since I had this exam. ;)
 
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Baggins

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I've been reading that wacko rightwing web site that Mark posted as "evidence" that the Cambrian "explosion" couldn't happen through normal evolutionary methods; and it occurs to me that they have to use examples of modern animals as we have no way of knowing what the genomes of the precambrian animals were like. But to presuppose that it was similar to that found in modern animals is almost certainly wrong.

The fact that they don't make any mention of this suggests to me that they are just another creationist web site ( amongst other things ) and therefore there stuff cannot be read as uninterested science, but is written to make a political rather than scientific point.
 
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mark kennedy

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Link? The ferrari comment doesn't sound like something out of a peer-reviewed paper.

No, but this is a peer reviewed article abstract:

"We devised a ranking of regions in the human genome that show significant evolutionary acceleration. Here we report that the most dramatic of these 'human accelerated regions', HAR1, is part of a novel RNA gene (HAR1F) that is expressed specifically in Cajal-Retzius neurons in the developing human neocortex from 7 to 19 gestational weeks, a crucial period for cortical neuron specification and migration. HAR1F is co-expressed with reelin, a product of Cajal-Retzius neurons that is of fundamental importance in specifying the six-layer structure of the human cortex. HAR1 and the other human accelerated regions provide new candidates in the search for uniquely human biology" (Pollard KS and 15 others. 2006. An RNA gene expressed during cortical development evolved rapidly in humans. Nature (online early))
 
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mark kennedy

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As far as I can see there is no evidence in what you have posted that says it is impossible for simple bilateral life forms to have evolved into the Cambrian fauna in 60+ million years.

"The “Cambrian explosion” refers to the geologically sudden appearance of many new animal body plans about 530 million years ago. At this time, at least nineteen, and perhaps as many as thirty-five phyla of forty total (Meyer et al. 2003), made their first appearance on earth within a narrow five- to ten-million-year window of geologic time (Bowring et al. 1993, 1998a:1, 1998b:40; Kerr 1993; Monastersky 1993; Aris-Brosou & Yang 2003). Many new subphyla, between 32 and 48 of 56 total (Meyer et al. 2003), and classes of animals also arose at this time with representatives of these new higher taxa manifesting significant morphological innovations. The Cambrian explosion thus marked a major episode of morphogenesis in which many new and disparate organismal forms arose in a geologically brief period of time"

Try actually reading the article next time.

Especially since you don't know how complex the genome of the 600ma bilateral life form is, it is just compared to later precambrian sponges which can't be considered a direct ancestor of the more complex Cambrian fauna anyway. In fact it seems rather disingenuous to compare sponges to arthropods, when they are very distently related. Plus there appear to be no information on the evolution of the regulatory genome or hox genes, I think we can assume that both of these things would have developed at this time ( the regulatory regions perhaps earlier ) and had a profound effect on the evolution of diverse body plans. These would not need any change in speed of evolution though.

The precambrian period was billions of years where the most advanced life forms were bacteria and fauna for billions of years. Then in a very brief window of natural history most of the primary taxanomic catagories appear suddenly, fully formed, in six to ten million years.

There are plenty of quite complex life forms around 10s of millions of years before the Cambrian, not only bilateria but also Vendobionts ( the ediacaran fauna ), some of which are bilateral as well.

The point was clear enough, you are comparing something with hundreds of nucleotides to cells that have millions. How you and everyone else is missing this is a mystery to me.

So I ask again, have you any evidence to suggest why simple Bilatera can't evolve into arthropods over 60+ million years?

There is no known mechanism for writting such a specific line of DNA code. It does not happen in nature and it did not happen in real history. Bacteria does not become Eukaryote cells, it simply is a matter of suppostion not science.

Because all I see above is an argument that sponges are simple and arthropods are complex. And that would appear to be no answer at all, so this will simply become another one of your arguments from personal incredulity, and therefore worthless.

Worthless is how I would describe the Single Common Ancestor Model. It has had no basis for it's universal application and yet it is an a priori fact in the minds of most scientists. In fact, worthless is an understatement.

edit - This paper also appears to come from quasi-rightwing think-tank, rather than a peer reviewed scientific journal as well. Which leads me to believe that they may have some political axe to grind here.

Baloney, you didn't read the article did you? You don't realize that this was published by a reputable scientific organization and go off into this mindless rant:

"On August 4th, 2004 an extensive review essay by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, Director of Discovery Institute's Center for Science & Culture appeared in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington (volume 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239). The Proceedings is a peer-reviewed biology journal published at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C."




Edit - I also notice that they shave 10 million years off the age of the oldest ediacaran faunas. They don't have up to date information on the oldest bilateral fossils found. Most of the arguments are based around mutation rates of modern animals and make nothing of the fact that evolution of simple bilaterians to complex cambrian faunas would have happened at a time of immense advantage for large phenotypic change ( goldschmidts hopeful monster theory ) at the end of an ice age with subsequent flooding of extensive coastal shelf regions and the creation of a myriad of unexploited niches for the new bilateral multicellular body plan to exploit.

Sure improved body plans would help but first they have to result from an adaptation. This kind of adaptive radiation only happens in the myths written by Darwinians.

It is one huge argument from incredulity, based mainly on research on modern animals genomes.

methinks I smell rat, oh yes I smell a rat

It could almost have been written by Mark himself, it is a mighty body of work but it gives no reason why the Cambrian fauna couldn't have evolved over 70ma except that a similar explosion couldn't happen ion modern animals.

Well DUH!

It gives many reason supported by modern scientific literature that is cited, quoted and not some crackpot organizations either. Read the paper next time before you start jumping to ill-founded conclusions.
 
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mark kennedy

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I've been reading that wacko rightwing web site that Mark posted as "evidence" that the Cambrian "explosion" couldn't happen through normal evolutionary methods; and it occurs to me that they have to use examples of modern animals as we have no way of knowing what the genomes of the precambrian animals were like. But to presuppose that it was similar to that found in modern animals is almost certainly wrong.

The fact that they don't make any mention of this suggests to me that they are just another creationist web site ( amongst other things ) and therefore there stuff cannot be read as uninterested science, but is written to make a political rather than scientific point.


I was not aware that the Smithsonian Insitute endored creationist websites. You really ought to take a better look at this and stop this silly rant that is based on nothing but suppostion.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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i can't post often enough that the 5th and 6th chapters of:
Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom by Sean B. Carroll

is a very accessible discussion of the role hox genes play in the formation of animal body plans with reference to how the cambrian fits into the TofE and the evolution of the regulatory sequences.

it is simply the best easy introduction i've seen.
any links or references to similiar material would be appreciated

tia.
 
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Chalnoth

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The precambrian period was billions of years where the most advanced life forms were bacteria and fauna for billions of years. Then in a very brief window of natural history most of the primary taxanomic catagories appear suddenly, fully formed, in six to ten million years.
1. The fossil record is not complete. Many animals with softer bodies may well not have fossilized prior to the Cambrian explosion, and thus it may not be that they weren't there before the Cambrian explosion, but just that we have a hard time detecting their presence before this time.
2. Six to ten million years is a far cry from appearing suddenly, particularly for organisms that were likely to reproduce on the order of days or weeks.

Six to ten million years could easily be half a billion generations for many of these species, and as such all you need is a strong selective pressure to explain the changes. I think that the "light switch" hypothesis provides a very good plausible explanation for the Cambrian Explosion. This hypothesis states that the evolution of the eye in predators (which happened just prior to the Cambrian Explosion) caused an onset of very rapid evolution, which also included the evolution of hard shells which were more easily preserved.

There are other plausible explanations, but it is worth noting that whenever anybody says that "scientists don't yet have an explanation," it doesn't mean that scientists don't have any explanation, but rather that scientists have many explanations and have yet to narrow the field down enough.
 
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