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Physics and the Immortality of the Soul

createdtoworship

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I don't think it was published peer-reviewed for starters. Let's pick just one claim from Brynjolfsson's original paper:

"The photons are gravitationally redshifted when emitted in the Sun; but during their travel from the Sun to the Earth, they lose their gravitational redshift, and are not gravitationally redshifted when they arrive on the Earth"

There's absolutely no evidence for this. None. Zero. Why should photons lose energy or "gravitational redshift", given they are traveling along null geodesics with tangent vectors of norm 0?

Anyhow, it all violates thermodynamics, because a charged particle could easily have higher energy than a low energy photon, thereby necessitating blueshifts to be possible as well as redshifts. Unfortunately his theory does not allow this, so it violates the second law, and is therefore false.

you haven't offered peer review for protons being "mass" in some instances and NOT MASS in others?
 
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mkatzwork

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so is a photon a particle or a wave? It can't be both at the same time.

answer this question and you have the reason why they are eternal.

Wave-particle duality is far from an 'answered' question. We have a very good understanding of it...but again, it's not like everybody thinks that its necessarily true and there are alternatives. Einstein hated it. What do you think the answer to your question is?

Actually a photon can be measured as both a particle and a wave simultaneously...just an fyi. It's kind of an open book.

[quant-ph/0702188] Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality

But its irrelevant to your point and the answer doesn't give any such reason to you...what exactly do you mean by eternal anyhow? Eternal in the past or eternal in the future, incidentally (not that makes a huge amount of difference, but I'm just interested as to whether your worldview includes an eternal or cyclic past)?

Photons can last for billions of years or for no time at all, it simply depends on what is in their way...if they bump into certain things...they are gone. Not photons any more. Not even in existence any more. The thing they bump into (usually an electron) gains a higher energy level. The photon is far from eternal.
 
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createdtoworship

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Wave-particle duality is far from an 'answered' question. We have a very good understanding of it...but again, it's not like everybody thinks that its necessarily true and there are alternatives. Einstein hated it. What do you think the answer to your question is?

Actually a photon can be measured as both a particle and a wave simultaneously...just an fyi. It's kind of an open book.

[quant-ph/0702188] Paradox in Wave-Particle Duality

But its irrelevant to your point and the answer doesn't give any such reason to you...what exactly do you mean by eternal anyhow? Eternal in the past or eternal in the future, incidentally (not that makes a huge amount of difference, but I'm just interested as to whether your worldview includes an eternal or cyclic past)?

Photons can last for billions of years or for no time at all, it simply depends on what is in their way...if they bump into certain things...they are gone. Not photons any more. Not even in existence any more. The thing they bump into (usually an electron) gains a higher energy level. The photon is far from eternal.

what IS a photon, do you know?

Is it like a spiritual LED?

Don't tell me it is a particle, because we know it's a wave.

secondly explain how a photon exists?
 
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mkatzwork

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you haven't offered peer review for protons being "mass" in some instances and NOT MASS in others?

Here's one, there are many...

[1012.2717] Upper bounds on the photon mass

the assumption of a "massless" photon is largely based:

http://www.ee.umanitoba.ca/~mcleod/Einstein/eng1905CavLabCamTypo.pdf

and many papers deriving from it...

This of course all depends on your definition of mass...photons have inertial mass (required by relativity) but no "rest" mass. In the Higgs view of things photons have no mass because they don't interact with the Higgs boson.

What I'm trying to say is that's it's all a bit more complicated than you think and it's also not proving anything about 'eternal' notions that you might want it to or helping your case at all.
 
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createdtoworship

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From what I understand in a neon or florescent light, the light comes from photons.

1. You run electricity through the neon gas filled tube and the electricity (added energy) causes the electrons on the atoms to move into a higher energy level, right so far?

2. Then, the electrons falls back down to a lower (their more natural/less excited) energy level.

3. When this happens they release the excess energy build up as a photon.

4. The photon is what I see as light.

5. (Different gases release different wavelengths, step 2, so that is why you can get different colors of neon lights)

Are any of those steps correct? :)

What I don't get is what happens between steps 2 and 3 that "makes" a photon?

Where did the photon come from?

Did the electricity (which is moving electrons along a circuit right?) get "converted" into the photon?

What is the photon made up of?

Did an electron get turned into a photon, did it split apart and a photon get released when the atom's electron moved to the lower energy level?

I'm assuming I am missing something on a more fundamental level that is causing me this confusion?
 
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mkatzwork

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what IS a photon, do you know?

Is it like a spiritual LED?

Don't tell me it is a particle, because we know it's a wave.

secondly explain how a photon exists?

Wow. Ok. BIG question.

What is a photon?

It's not like an LED for starters. A photon can be though of as the quantum of electromagnetic energy. There's nothing spiritual about it. Gilbert Lewis was the first person to come up with the term. Funnily enough he thought they couldn't be destroyed too, but future experiments showed this to not be the case (as they can be annihilated and created in many ways). Still, his term for it was neat and we use it.

It exhibits both wave and particle-like properties - like ALL particles, according to quantum mechanics, by the way. Whether something is a particle or a wave at an unspecified moment in time is something of a matter of perspective and there's this thing called uncertainty which'll really make your head hurt. Again...broad oversimplifications...
 
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mkatzwork

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From what I understand in a neon or florescent light, the light comes from photons.

Kind of - the light basically "is" photons. All EM radiation "is" (light included). Let's deal with fluorescent first:

1. You run electricity through the neon gas filled tube and the electricity (added energy) causes the electrons on the atoms to move into a higher energy level, right so far?

Sort of...the electrons collide with atoms of mercury gas. This excites the mercury atoms, and that's where the bumping up to a higher energy level happens.


2. Then, the electrons falls back down to a lower (their more natural/less excited) energy level.

Right.

3. When this happens they release the excess energy build up as a photon.

Basically.

4. The photon is what I see as light.

No. This photon would be in the ultraviolet energy range. The ultraviolet range photons hit phosphor atoms in the coating of the tube or bulb, the same thing happens as did with the mercury; when the electron falls back to its initial state it releases a photon with less energy than the original photon, and this is now in the visible light spectrum.

5. (Different gases release different wavelengths, step 2, so that is why you can get different colors of neon lights)

No, they change the type of phosphor usually. In neon lamps the result is usually orange, with a filter to change the color a bit. Other colors use other gases, but these usually then excite a phosphor coating also.

Are any of those steps correct? :)

Some of them! You have the basic idea.

What I don't get is what happens between steps 2 and 3 that "makes" a photon?


Where did the photon come from?

A great pair of questions, and a complicated answer; it's basically to do with Maxwell's equations (at least, two of them anyhow)...the varying magnetic field in the atom caused by the collision causes a ripple that releases the second photon, an electromagnetic ripple heading away from the charge.

Did the electricity (which is moving electrons along a circuit right?) get "converted" into the photon?

Some energy from the electron got "converted" but again, not quite that simple.

What is the photon made up of?

It is a quantized packet of electromagnetic energy, basically.


Did an electron get turned into a photon, did it split apart and a photon get released when the atom's electron moved to the lower energy level?

It didn't really split apart, or get "turned into" a photon. Electrons can only exist at certain energy levels within the atom so they have to release excess energy somewhere.

I'm assuming I am missing something on a more fundamental level that is causing me this confusion?

Not really, I think you might have the fundamentals better than you think. It's just very very very complicated when you delve down into subatomic particles. They don't behave quite like what one might expect...
 
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createdtoworship

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Wow. Ok. BIG question.

What is a photon?

It's not like an LED for starters. A photon can be though of as the quantum of electromagnetic energy. There's nothing spiritual about it. Gilbert Lewis was the first person to come up with the term. Funnily enough he thought they couldn't be destroyed too, but future experiments showed this to not be the case (as they can be annihilated and created in many ways). Still, his term for it was neat and we use it.

It exhibits both wave and particle-like properties - like ALL particles, according to quantum mechanics, by the way. Whether something is a particle or a wave at an unspecified moment in time is something of a matter of perspective and there's this thing called uncertainty which'll really make your head hurt. Again...broad oversimplifications...

I agree with gilbert lewis, tell me more about why He believed photons could not be destroyed.
 
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createdtoworship

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Kind of - the light basically "is" photons. All EM radiation "is" (light included). Let's deal with fluorescent first:



Sort of...the electrons collide with atoms of mercury gas. This excites the mercury atoms, and that's where the bumping up to a higher energy level happens.




Right.



Basically.



No. This photon would be in the ultraviolet energy range. The ultraviolet range photons hit phosphor atoms in the coating of the tube or bulb, the same thing happens as did with the mercury; when the electron falls back to its initial state it releases a photon with less energy than the original photon, and this is now in the visible light spectrum.



No, they change the type of phosphor usually. In neon lamps the result is usually orange, with a filter to change the color a bit. Other colors use other gases, but these usually then excite a phosphor coating also.



Some of them! You have the basic idea.






A great pair of questions, and a complicated answer; it's basically to do with Maxwell's equations (at least, two of them anyhow)...the varying magnetic field in the atom caused by the collision causes a ripple that releases the second photon, an electromagnetic ripple heading away from the charge.



Some energy from the electron got "converted" but again, not quite that simple.



It is a quantized packet of electromagnetic energy, basically.




It didn't really split apart, or get "turned into" a photon. Electrons can only exist at certain energy levels within the atom so they have to release excess energy somewhere.



Not really, I think you might have the fundamentals better than you think. It's just very very very complicated when you delve down into subatomic particles. They don't behave quite like what one might expect...

explain how electrons turn into photons. In laymans terms.
 
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createdtoworship

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That's pretty hard. An electron and positron can annihilate one another creating two photons, and a photon of sufficient energy can become and electron-positron pair...

:confused:

lost me
 
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createdtoworship

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mkatzwork

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Ok...back for a bit post-food...

Firstly let's talk about photons and electrons and why a photon can, under certain circumstances where it has high enough energy, form a pair of particles of matter - an electron and a positron. (It can form other particles also, at higher energy levels, it just has to have the requisite amount of energy to do so).

The positron is simply the antiparticle to the electron - the electron has negative charge and so its antiparticle, the positron, has positive charge and the same mass. (The electron incidentally could also be called a negatron...but rarely is).

We know from special relativity that e = mc2. Energy and mass are equivalent to each other, relative to a constant (which happens to be the speed of light squared, but just think of it as kind of "pivot").

What this means is that the energy of the photon has to be high enough to be able to create the electron-positron pair, that is - it has to enough energy equivalent to the rest mass of the electron plus the positron. If it doesn't have enough, the pair can't be created. (Imagine having to pay 2 people 50 dollars each at the same time. If you didn't have 100 dollars in your hand, you couldn't do it!)

The mass of an electron is approximately equivalent to 0.511 Mev, so the photon has to have an energy greater than roughly 1.022 Mev (roughly in the gamma-ray part of the spectrum).

But that's not all...it also has to interact with something for the process to actually happen in reality. Because of the laws regarding the conservation of momentum, a single photon cannot just turn into a pair of matter particles spontaneously. It has to collide with another photon, or with something else (for example a nucleus), so its momentum has somewhere to go. When they collide, that's when matter creation can occur, if the energy level is high enough as mentioned before.

This is what particle accelerators like the Large Hadron Collider basically do - they slam particles - sometimes photons, sometimes other things - into each other so that we can then look for the traces of what emerges as a result.

It's a little complicated and gets even more complicated pretty quickly, but that's the basic idea.


also found out a cool little photon mind trick called the "quantum eraser"

hows that work?

also the double slit test for photons,

hows that work?

Quantum mechanics survives triple-slit photon test | Ars Technica

I'll get to this in the next post. Good questions again...
 
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Michael

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Sure - let's actually look at the original paper and bang one more nail in this coffin:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401420.pdf

His very first equation is wrong (page 4).

This is given to show the distribution of frequencies in a photon. It's actually the response of an atom to an electric field. The Poynting vector is only defined for large scale electromagnetic fields and it cannot be applied to single photons.

Hmmm. He's not actually describing a single photon, but rather an entire FIELD of photons with a specific density per second per square centimeter:

For a photon’s field moving along the x-axis, we can at x = 0 normalize the Poynting vector, S, to the energy flux of one photon, ¯hω0 = hν0, per second and per square cm in vacuum, where h is the Planck constant.
 
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mkatzwork

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Hmmm. He's not actually describing a single photon, but rather an entire FIELD of photons with a specific density per second per square centimeter:

Uh...what? No he's not. Read the whole paragraph again. It's made crystal clear he is talking about individual photons entering a plasma and how they are affected. Irrespective the first equation does not give the distribution of frequency content but is the equation for the response of an atomic structure to an electric field so he is still wrong...
 
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mkatzwork

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Hmmm. He's not actually describing a single photon, but rather an entire FIELD of photons with a specific density per second per square centimeter:

Incidentally, he refutes your statement in his introduction...

"It is about the interaction of one incident photon with a great many electrons in the plasma"...

The "field" is that of a single photon (as he makes clear even in the sentence you quote - "for a photon's field", singular, not plural).

You mistook the Poynting vector mathematics (which is based on area, not volume, by the way, as would probably be necessitated by what you suggest) - for the expression of what is being described. This is relatively basic undergraduate stuff...you're misunderstanding his misunderstandings...

Whilst we bring up the subject of work, the photon that is traveling null geodesics has not performed work nor will it have work performed on it, so you still haven't suggested a method by which it can lose energy without being deflected...there is no blurring seen in distant images as would be necessitated by this, and this theory also fails to account for that absence.

And anyhow, it all still violates the second law of thermodynamics, and energy conservation; because of the necessity of constant, even red shifting of all photons traveling long distance (and no blue shifting) to match observations, and the density required of the intergalactic plasma is vastly higher than the density shown via observation...

You've accused the cosmological constant of being an "unobserved sky deity" and criticize other hypotheses that emerge from General relativity...yikes. They're doing much better than this garbage.

Incidentally, the eternal universe supposed by Brynjolfsson requires no creator, being by its very definition infinite (no "in the beginning" needed), so how does your religion feel about all this?
 
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Michael

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You mistook the Poynting vector mathematics (which is based on area, not volume, by the way, as would probably be necessitated by what you suggest) - for the expression of what is being described. This is relatively basic undergraduate stuff...you're misunderstanding his misunderstandings...

Gah. Unfortunately you're right about that. :) That's what I get for quickly responding before coffee in the morning. :(

I'm going to have to chew on your original objection again.

Whilst we bring up the subject of work, the photon that is traveling null geodesics has not performed work nor will it have work performed on it, so you still haven't suggested a method by which it can lose energy without being deflected...
Presumably it would need to impart some amount of it's kinetic energy to one or more electrons. I'd personally expect some deflection.

there is no blurring seen in distant images as would be necessitated by this, and this theory also fails to account for that absence.
In terms of the blurring aspects, I would expect that would depend on where and how most of the deflection(s) took place, whether they occurred close to the source (in the solar atmosphere) or somewhere far from the source. Birkeland's solar model was essentially a cathode in space with the greatest concentration of electrons located closest to the solar surface.

And anyhow, it all still violates the second law of thermodynamics, and energy conservation; because of the necessity of constant, even red shifting of all photons traveling long distance (and no blue shifting) to match observations, and the density required of the intergalactic plasma is vastly higher than the density shown via observation...
In terms of density of electrons in space, pretty much EVERY EU model of the universe predicts more of them than standard theory. More importantly, current observations of the density and layout of mass have failed to come up with MOST of the actual mass of the universe so that's not much of an argument from my perspective. In fact, the mainstream need for "dark matter", and the implication they simply didn't find most of it yet, makes this model more attractive IMO.

You've accused the cosmological constant of being an "unobserved sky deity" and criticize other hypotheses that emerge from General relativity...yikes. They're doing much better than this garbage.
I'll be the first to admit that the METHOD of scattering that he's proposing has NOT been verified, and according him at least it CANNOT be verified due to the distances involved. I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case however. It seems to me that we should be able increase plasma density (ion density) and electron density high enough on Earth to be able to "test' some of these concepts in pure experiments on Earth, or inside our own solar system.

I will however grant you it's a current weakness of the theory, but there's only ONE undemonstrated claim to worry about, not three! That alone is 'better" IMO. The fact that high ion density and higher electron density might be used to test the idea is a bonus. At least he's not CREATING NEW PARTICLES/ENERGY to worry about, and it's presumably a PHYSICAL reaction between things that show up in the lab. That means it COULD be tested in theory at least. Again, that's "better than" mainstream theory.

Incidentally, the eternal universe supposed by Brynjolfsson requires no creator, being by its very definition infinite (no "in the beginning" needed), so how does your religion feel about all this?
Apparently my "religion" is just fine with the universe exactly as it happens to exist. For a number of reasons, I still tend to favor an expanding/moving universe, but I'm totally fine with the idea of a static and eternal universe too, in fact such a model would probably make more sense in the context of my personal 'religion'.
 
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mkatzwork

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Gah. Unfortunately you're right about that. :) That's what I get for quickly responding before coffee in the morning. :(

Yeah...know that feeling. Mmmmmm....caffeine.

Presumably it would need to impart some amount of it's kinetic energy to one or more electrons. I'd personally expect some deflection.

I'd be interested to see what the minimum deflection would be and the effects that should have on images over significant distances (millions of light years). That'd give you a benchmark to satisfy.

In terms of the blurring aspects, I would expect that would depend on where and how most of the deflection(s) took place, whether they occurred close to the source (in the solar atmosphere) or somewhere far from the source. Birkeland's solar model was essentially a cathode in space with the greatest concentration of electrons located closest to the solar surface.

Should be easily measured then, depending on solar position, since the light coming from distant galaxies could reach us without passing closer to the sun....the difference between that and that reaching us through the closer densities to the sun's surface should be observable at almost any frequency...

In terms of density of electrons in space, pretty much EVERY EU model of the universe predicts more of them than standard theory. More importantly, current observations of the density and layout of mass have failed to come up with MOST of the actual mass of the universe so that's not much of an argument from my perspective. In fact, the mainstream need for "dark matter", and the implication they simply didn't find most of it yet, makes this model more attractive IMO.

They do predict more, but not enough more...and now you're also appealing to as yet unobserved matter to support your theory...shall we call it "dark"? :)

(NB: this is a joke, but since we do have mathematical constructs of weakly interacting particles to potentially explain dark matter, and possible experimental detection of them already, we'll just have to wait a few months...it'll probably be next year once the Higgs hoopla dies down, because it looks very much like that just got found).

I'll be the first to admit that the METHOD of scattering that he's proposing has NOT been verified, and according him at least it CANNOT be verified due to the distances involved. I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case however. It seems to me that we should be able increase plasma density (ion density) and electron density high enough on Earth to be able to "test' some of these concepts in pure experiments on Earth, or inside our own solar system.

I agree it should be testable. Given the distances involved, the scattering should theoretically be greater and so more observable, and not less, but I need to reread what he said (I got stuck at his early maths which still makes no sense to me at all).

I will however grant you it's a current weakness of the theory, but there's only ONE undemonstrated claim to worry about, not three! That alone is 'better" IMO. The fact that high ion density and higher electron density might be used to test the idea is a bonus. At least he's not CREATING NEW PARTICLES/ENERGY to worry about, and it's presumably a PHYSICAL reaction between things that show up in the lab. That means it COULD be tested in theory at least. Again, that's "better than" mainstream theory.

Well, it's a pretty fundamental weakness, that's the issue. When the first equation in a paper is wrong it shoots the rest out of the water almost regardless of any truth contained within, and a lot of what he has written derives from that mistake.

Dark matter really doesn't 'create' a new particle, it just postulates one we haven't found yet (maybe). Dark energy isn't a particle, and in some senses...isn't quite an energy either. I'm not a huge fan of the term since it has implications that are confusing. I'm an even less of a fan of the term 'teleportation' in terms of quantum teleportation, because as we can see from this thread, that's even more misunderstood...


Apparently my "religion" is just fine with the universe exactly as it happens to exist. For a number of reasons, I still tend to favor an expanding/moving universe, but I'm totally fine with the idea of a static and eternal universe too, in fact such a model would probably make more sense in the context of my personal 'religion'.

My gut is if you're going to say that God created the universe, creating one that's infinite and eternal is far more mysterious and impressive than one that's not eternal in both directions, which is why I find Genesis a little strange.

It's so human, so constrained, so fallible. If it just said "God did something that's beyond your comprehension and beyond this page, and that's why we're here, so quit asking as you're never going to understand" there'd be no major argument to be made against it (no falsifying either of course, but it'd be much harder to come at it).

You'd be able to explain anything with the Bible. It's the the endless justification literalist YEC's use for the Bible, trying to find evidence for the flood, and so on and so forth, that just seems so silly and unnecessary in justification of a truly divine creator...

But I'm playing (for want of a better word) devil's advocate...
 
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