Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

[JimfromOhio]

I'm glad you believe in healing. Unfortunately, many do not. I believe that He has already chosen to heal us and that His timing is now. There are many examples from scripture of people being healed because of their faith.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

There are many reasons why some are healed and others not. Because some do and some don't, some will and some won't, is not sufficient proof to say that its not God's will to heal everyone. God is love and He desires all of His children to be in health.

Mr 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

Peace

I have been busy lately but I will answer to your post since this is an area that bothers me the most by those who believes as you do.

A.W. Tozer's Quote: Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality. The man's faith in the mountain is valid only because the mountain is there; otherwise it would be mere imagination and would need to be sharply corrected to rescue the man from harmful delusion. So God is what He is in Himself. He does not become what we believe. "I AM That I AM." We are on safe ground only when we know what kind of God He is and adjust our entire being to the holy concept.

God is absolutely powerful and I have the ability to move the mountains. However, I am unable to move the mountains because God says "no".

By faith, can anyone able to walk on WATER? I have the ability to walk on water only if its according to God's will.

Jesus came to earth in order to deal with sin by paying its penalty on the cross. He also dealt with the results of sin – faced with demon possession, He cast out evil spirits. Finding disease, He healed the sick. God can, and sometimes does, heal people in miraculous ways today, but the Bible does not teach that He will always physically, emotionally and mentally heal those who come to Him in faith. His sovereignty reserves the right to heal or not to heal as He sees fit (1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

For the person who does not experience healing, Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. God's purpose in redemption was not to make people’s lives happy, healthy and free of trouble; His purpose was to rescue them from sin then conform them from the inside out to the image of His Son by the power of His Spirit. Disability allows the life of Christ to be manifested to others through the flesh. God builds strength, virtue, compassion, faith and sacrificial love into His children “to become conformed to the image of His son.” (Romans 8:29)

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Ephesians 3:17 "so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love."

In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

 

[spiritman]

I have been busy lately but I will answer to your post since this is an area that bothers me the most by those who believes as you do.

A.W. Tozer's Quote: Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality. The man's faith in the mountain is valid only because the mountain is there; otherwise it would be mere imagination and would need to be sharply corrected to rescue the man from harmful delusion. So God is what He is in Himself. He does not become what we believe. "I AM That I AM." We are on safe ground only when we know what kind of God He is and adjust our entire being to the holy concept.

God is absolutely powerful and I have the ability to move the mountains. However, I am unable to move the mountains because God says "no".

By faith, can anyone able to walk on WATER? I have the ability to walk on water only if its according to God's will.

Jesus came to earth in order to deal with sin by paying its penalty on the cross. He also dealt with the results of sin – faced with demon possession, He cast out evil spirits. Finding disease, He healed the sick. God can, and sometimes does, heal people in miraculous ways today, but the Bible does not teach that He will always physically, emotionally and mentally heal those who come to Him in faith. His sovereignty reserves the right to heal or not to heal as He sees fit (1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

For the person who does not experience healing, Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. God's purpose in redemption was not to make people’s lives happy, healthy and free of trouble; His purpose was to rescue them from sin then conform them from the inside out to the image of His Son by the power of His Spirit. Disability allows the life of Christ to be manifested to others through the flesh. God builds strength, virtue, compassion, faith and sacrificial love into His children “to become conformed to the image of His son.” (Romans 8:29)

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Ephesians 3:17 "so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love."

In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Your thoughts are based on natural reasoning. Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

BTW using commentaries does not qualify as evidence for your position. MY faith is not based on commentaries.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Your thoughts are based on natural reasoning. Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

BTW using commentaries does not qualify as evidence for your position.

Is divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not?

I am NEVER comfortable telling people about such doctrines and I don't want to be responsible for decieving another person when I share the good news. A good witness isn't like a salesperson selling physical healing simply because sales-person focuses on the products (healing) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation.

When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.

God still divinely heals today and healings have occurred everyday and ever minute around the world. True basic theology is that God does not guarantee physical healing for all believers, at least not in this life, all believers will eventually be healed of all physical aliments as well as spiritual aliments.

Christians are accountable to God because they will not understand their spiritual character deeply unless they subject themselves to the spiritual discipline of the Holy Spirit. I am careful when it comes to healing doctrines.

The author of the book of Hebrews explain that "faith is the conviction of things not seen". A strong Chrisitian is prepared to live out our life on the basis of faith regardless of sight, taste, feel and experience. I have not seen God, nor I have seen Christ nor I have seen or feel the Holy Spirit. Faith is believing there is another dimension to life other than those which can be touched, tasted, seen or felt. There is more to life than that. There is also the realm of the spirit, the invisible spiritual kingdom of God. Biblical faith is this: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1-2).

God still divinely heals today and healings have occurred everyday and ever minute around the world. If physical healing is guaranteed, then all Christians who are in Christ are healed before physical death. I encourage people not to fall into bad theology of “healing” is a sign of blessing or an indication of purer faith or spiritual growth. Trusting God is more important than healing because I trust God, Who is always making provisions for my future according to His will by providing and guiding for His glory.

True basic theology is that God does not guarantee physical healing for all believers, at least not in this life, all believers will eventually be healed of all physical aliments as well as spiritual aliments.

One of the best lessons doctrinally is reading the book of Job. This is the question raised after Job loses his family, his wealth, and his health. Job's 3 friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, come to comfort him and to discuss his crushing series of tragedies. They insist his suffering is punishment for sin in his life. Job, though, remains devoted to God through all of this and contends that his life has not been one of sin. Regarding Job's FRIENDS, every statement of Job's three friends was TRUE and their reasoning was impeccable. They said that God punishes sinners -- and they were right. They said that none could hide his sins from God -- and they were right!

Now we need to look at the Book of Job to find out WHY and Where then were they wrong? At the end of the book, we read this profound statement: "After the Lord had finished speaking with Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'I am angry with you and your two friends, for you have not been right in what you have said about me, as my servant Job was. Now take seven young bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves; and my servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer on your behalf, and won't destroy you as I should because of your sin, your failure to speak rightly concerning my servant Job" (Job 42:7-8).

His friends had NO PROOF of any of Job's lack of faith in God that they accused him of but they just could not believe that he was blameless, and so they tried with all their might to convict him of sin, when he was blameless. They missed the whole point of Job's sufferings, just as most people do, today EVEN when ONE is NOT healed, because they "assume" of a person's lack of faith or sin or whatever.

 

[JimfromOhio]

If you have strong faith, why haven't you walked on Water or moved Mountains?

 

[spiritman]

If you have strong faith, why haven't you walked on Water or moved Mountains?

I give you the Word of God and ask you to comment on it and you dodge the question.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

Do you want to play games or have a serious discussion?

 

[pinetree]

If you have strong faith, why haven't you walked on Water or moved Mountains?

Thats a good point,if we are going to stand on the scriptures,then we have to be able to walk on water too..

Also,here is a scripture that never gets quoted in it's fullness,to say the least..

Thats right out of the word of God..

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

 

[spiritman]

Thats a good point,if we are going to stand on the scriptures,then we have to be able to walk on water too..

Also,here is a scripture that never gets quoted in it's fullness,to say the least..

Thats right out of the word of God..

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Since I quoted scriptures shouldn't you be addressing them. If you have a problem with what I posted feel free to address them.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

 

[pinetree]

Since I quoted scriptures shouldn't you be addressing them. If you have a problem with what I posted feel free to address them.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

I just did..

That is a verse for those who think they have strong faith..

That would be a way to excercise it..

.Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

 

[spiritman]

I just did..

That is a verse for those who think they have strong faith..

That would be a way to excercise it..

.Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Which of the scriptures I gave are you addressing?

 

[pinetree]

I give you the Word of God and ask you to comment on it and you dodge the question.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

Do you want to play games or have a serious discussion?

you do not have to be rude to Jimfromohio...

 

[spiritman]

you do not have to be rude to Jim...

Still dodeging the question?

Let Jim take care of himself. He's a big boy.

Get serious and answer the question.

 

[pinetree]

Still dodeging the question?

Let Jim take care of himself. He's a big boy.

Get serious and answer the question.

Your tone displays that you seek faith,but not love.

Speak politely,then I will validate you.

 

[spiritman]

Your tone displays that you seek faith,but not love.

Speak politely,then I will validate you.

Validate me for what? A parking stall.

What tone? Does asking someone to get serious constitute rudeness? Is it not rude to criticize someone's statement and then not answer their repeated question possibly fall into the category you describe?

Ok, let me put it this way. I see your a sensitive guy.

Please answer my question!!

 

[pinetree]

If we are going to trust Pauls revelations,and guidance,than I think we have to not forget an important issue here..

After all,it is scripture.

This verse below is right out of the word of God too..

It is not a gnat,just because it is one verse..

After all,John 3:16 is but one verse...

If healings are an assolute,an an all for all,all the time condition..

What happened here?

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Also,the Paul,whose garment healed some,also said this..

1. Galatians 4:13
   As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you.
   Galatians 4:12-14 (in Context) Galatians 4 (Whole Chapter)
2. Galatians 4:14
   Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

Also,why did he not just heal poor ole Timothy?


1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses

Seems like we need to have a whole view of scriptures..

 

[pinetree]

Validate me for what? A parking stall.

What tone? Does asking someone to get serious constitute rudeness? Is it not rude to criticize someone's statement and then not answer their repeated question possibly fall into the category you describe?

Ok, let me put it this way. I see your a sensitive guy.

Please answer my question!!

sensitive brother pinetree quoted a verse earlier,and you dismissed it as a "gnat"

Now,in order to maintain thread integrity...

Lets keep order,and discuss my verse...

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

 

[spiritman]

sensitive brother pinetree quoted a verse earlier,and you dismissed it as a "gnat"

Now,in order to maintain thread integrity...

Lets keep order,and discuss my verse...

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Still dodging the question. Do you see why I said get serious?

Let me state it again. I'll be happy to address your questions but first things first.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

 

[pinetree]

Lets face it,if Paul was ill,then doesnt that raise an important question?

Does that not put a major hole in phia?

Why would we quote Paul,only sometimes?

The problem with thw phia,is they take scriptures,and hold up the wonderful healing verses as an absolute,yey they deny paul had issues,that he could not heal away..





30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 11.30-12.10)

 

[pinetree]

Still dodging the question. Do you see why I said get serious?

Let me state it again. I'll be happy to address your questions but first things first.

Can you address the scriptures given and support your explanation with the Word of God?

really?

reread the thread,you made the first challenge,to my verse..

so first things first.

it was this important verse..

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

I raised a point,and you brushed right over it,so lets continue with the first point raised on our conversation.

serious anyone?

 

[spiritman]

Lets face it,if Paul was ill,then doesnt that raise an important question?

Does that not put a major hole in phia?

Why would we quote Paul,only sometimes?

The problem with thw phia,is they take scriptures,and hold up the wonderful healing verses as an absolute,yey they deny paul had issues,that he could not heal away..





30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 11.30-12.10)

Still dodging my question. Let me simplify it for you. What specifically do you disagree with that I posted?

Please quote me and explain? And dispense with answering my question with a question. If you have no answer then be honorable enough to say so.

 

[pinetree]

Still dodging my question. Let me simplify it for you. What specifically do you disagree with that I posted?

Please quote me and explain? And dispense with answering my question with a question. If you have no answer then be honorable enough to say so.

ok,there we have it..

I rasied a point,that Paul could not always heal.

he himself was ill...

He wrote some of the bible,therefore he was an important person,to say the least..

The whole point od the thread,is that sure,most believe in healings,,

BUT, it is the absolutes that are the issue.

I am open for an orderly honorable challenge.

Question being,does not Pauls infirmities,and his inability to always heal,punch a whole in phia...

After all,we must approach the whole of scripture to find our answers...