Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

spiritman · Sep 25, 2008

pinetree said:
I'm your huckleberry..

you seemed to have avoided my verses about Paul,like the plague..

Glorying in yourself! No, not avoiding the subject. Looking forward to discussing it in due time. But maybe not with you. I'm looking for a certain type of individual.
One that doesn't make assumptions. Stays on track and doesn't mind answering questions.

My desire is to cover all the pertinent issues relating to healing.

I love this subject.

Did you know that the devil hates it when I stay with the Word?

Mt 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

ARBITER01 · Sep 25, 2008

spiritman said:
At it again! Can't find anything productive to do except gossip? Should you be talking about me to others in this manner? I haven't seen anyone else do anything like this before.

It seems you have been following me from thread to thread and talking about me.

Have you been assigned to be my little persecutor?

Lu 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

What's a matter? You don't like the truth?

Why should I sit back and let my friends deal with your browbeating? If you don't like it, then change your tune and start using scripture correctly.

pinetree · Sep 25, 2008

spiritman said:
Glorying in yourself! No, not avoiding the subject. Looking forward to discussing it in due time. But maybe not with you. I'm looking for a certain type of individual.
One that doesn't make assumptions. Stays on track and doesn't mind answering questions.

My desire is to cover all the pertinent issues relating to healing.

I love this subject.

Did you know that the devil hates it when I stay with the Word?

Mt 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

.no.

sunlover1 · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
Here's another beautiful promise for healing.

Ps 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagles.

Awesome.
But how can that verse 3 be right?
It says God heals all of our diseases.

MoNiCa4316 said:
the Catholic Church teaches that the best way to sanctification is by the Cross, we are to rejoice in our sufferings and offer them to the Father in union with Christ's sacrifice, for the good of the Church.

Well it says in James to count it all joy when we fall into various trials.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptationsa;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work,
that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
a temptation: or, trials

We can help people either through feeding the poor, comforting the hurt, etc, or through prayer...and when we offer our suffering to God it's like a prayer for souls too.
That being said, we believe that God heals people too, if it's His will. But if you look at the lives of the Saints, they were not afraid of suffering.

Paul prayed three times for his thorn to be removed iirc.
But yeah, we certainly are not to complain if we're suffering...

Do all things without arguing or complaining

(btw, "redemptive suffering" doesn't mean that it redeems the way Christ's suffering does; we don't believe in earning forgiveness through suffering. This is not for the forgiveness of sins)

hope that helps..

Not really but I appreciate your post anyhow.
It's just me I'm sure.

ARBITER01 said:
I can do nothing, nor do I do anything.

But GOD has had me walk on water before, just for a moment.

Surely you jest?

HE hasn't used my prayers to raise the dead yet, but we shall see.
Do you doubt that GOD can do this through one of HIS?

I dont reckon there's ANYthing He cannot do.

Seeking Him said:
That's so true. Remember what Paul said. We are troubled on every side, persecuted but not forsaken, cast down but not destroyed. We carry the death of Jesus in our bodies, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. It seems a mystery to me, but our sufferings bring out God's life in us! That gives meaning to our suffering, and encouragement. It's an honor to carry the death of Jesus within us, and one day we will be raised with Him.

I think the passages before it explain it quite well:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge
of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed;
we are perplexed, but not in despairb;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken;
cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus,
that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake,
that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
b in despair: or, altogether without help, or, means

ARBITER01 · Sep 26, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Surely you jest?

No I don't.

Shortly after I was born again, when I was still stationed in Hawaii, I had came back to the Naval base at night and was heading to the on-base Subway to grab some food. It had rained semi-hard for just a short period before I arrived back on base.

As I was heading to Subway, I was not paying attention to where I was walking, and I had not noticed the big water puddles just before I reached Subway. I heard a "splish, splash, splish, splash" as I walked, and looked down to see what the sound was, and at that very moment I immediately sunk down out in the middle of this big water puddle almost knee-deep that I was otherwise walking across unawares. It surprised me and I jumped up and ran to try and get out of it before I got too wet, completely confused by the situation.

I felt The Lord smiling above me after I got out of the puddle, and I looked up and said "that was not funny" to Him, and it seemed that He sort of laughed at the situation a bit.

It was an unexpected manifestation of the gift of faith that happened at that moment, the same gift that Jesus operated in when He walked on water, the same gift that transported Phillip, and the very same gift that saved Daniel and his friends from the furnace.

That is the reason why I said: "I can do nothing nor do I do anything." GOD did that for a brief moment only as an initial learning experience to show that that particular gift was evident within me.

So no, I wasn't kidding about it. It was brief, but it did happen for that moment. I don't like posting about it in the general section because of the cessionalists, but you asked in a way so I decided to answer you only on it. My post is not up for discussion or argument, and I will just ignore posts in response to it from this point onward.

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

edited

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Originally Posted by spiritman

Here's another beautiful promise for healing.

Ps 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagles.

Awesome.
But how can that verse 3 be right?
It says God heals all of our diseases.

Yes! Isn't it wonderful. All we have to do is believe.

Peace

JimfromOhio · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
I'm not sure I understand the question. Clarify or rephrase please.

Ps 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

God heals in this "life-time" is man's perspective from self-centered doctrine while the Bible clearly says God heals according to His will and HIS TIME (God-Centered).

Discerning God's will (healing), we are to renounce the norms of behavior typical of flesh's desires (Gal. 5:19-20 and Lam. 3:13-16), and renew our minds, through the grace of God and the work the work of the Holy Spirit. If circumstantial situations fail to align with Scripture, we are to be careful because the subjective (i.e. desires) must always be determined by objective considerations (the Bible).

There are two worlds, set over against each other, dominated by two wills, the will of man (me) and the will of God, respectively. Whose will is stronger? God heals only through Him through our Faith in HIS WILL (if He chooses to heal us so that He use us to reach out to others). We have to remember its not how to believe but rather Who to believe in. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian.

This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ.

God's sovereignty requires that He be able to do whatever He wants to do anywhere, at any time, in every single detail, and without any interference. Including healing.

If He was less than completely free He would be less than sovereign. God is absolutely free to do what He wills because no one and nothing can hinder Him or compel Him or stop Him. Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in the earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6). God sovereignly works out His purposes in each person's life. The steps of a man are established by the Lord (Psalm 37:23). He marks out the paths of all His creatures and determines the way in which they will walk. I know O Lord that a man's way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps (Jer.10:23).

A Christian tries to act like a mature believer HOWEVER this Christian is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me." That's self-centered, not God-centered.

Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality (God-Centered). God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1).

Faith is a confidence that God will actually someday heal us here on earth or in Heaven, that He will actually some day make us perfect and free from sin, that He will actually some day bring us face to face with Christ and make us like Him, that He will actually someday reward us with eternal reward, that He will someday actually take us to a place Hes prepared for us, none of which we have ever seen. Nor has anybody ever come back to tell us about it. So its a matter of hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.

Faith is the title deed to the future. Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass. (See Hebrews 11 as an example)

Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

It is the faith that God has the ability and the will to fulfill His promises, that He can be trusted. We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, we also have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and, we also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by HIM. All have the same "will". The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. The Spirit is the one who works out that will of God and that desire of Christ by holding on to us, interceding for us incessantly as the great priest who dwells within us. All things are working together for good because the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, because the Son at the right hand of God is interceding for us. The outcome is not based on my Faith or my will but rather God's will for my life as I serve Him on this earth.

Is our faith in healing or in God does EVERYTHING including healing?

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
What's a matter? You don't like the truth?

Why should I sit back and let my friends deal with your browbeating? If you don't like it, then change your tune and start using scripture correctly.

I love the Truth. Just to prove it I'll give you some.

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
God heals in this "life-time" is man's perspective from self-centered doctrine while the Bible clearly says God heals according to His will and HIS TIME (God-Centered).

Can you provide scriptural proof for this? And in the interim I'm still digesting the rest of your post. I may have more questions.

BTW try to make your comments brief and clear.

Peace

sunlover1 · Sep 26, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
If circumstantial situations fail to align with Scripture, we are to be careful because the subjective (i.e. desires) must always be determined by objective considerations (the Bible).

Exactly! If Scripture says it, but we dont see it, then it's not God that
is the liar.

God's sovereignty requires that He be able to do whatever He wants to do anywhere, at any time, in every single detail, and without any interference. Including healing.

In His Sovereignty He set His kindom up as it has pleased Him.
Evidently He couldnt do any mighty work here because of their unbelief.
You can check the greek, and it says the same thing.. He could not:
5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=48752746#_ftnref1

If He was less than completely free He would be less than sovereign.

That's right, He set up HIS kindgom as HE desired, and then told
us to get our mind changed because it was at hand.... within us
to be sure.

A Christian tries to act like a mature believer HOWEVER this Christian is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me." That's self-centered, not God-centered.

Carnality, but that has nothing to do with healing.
Healing is HIS will. WE line our will up with His..
not the other way around.

It is the faith that God has the ability and the will to fulfill His promises, that He can be trusted.

We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, we also have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and, we also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=48752746#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=48752746#_ftnref1

The outcome is not based on my Faith or my will but rather God's will for my life as I serve Him on this earth.

Scripture says it's both, working in tandem.
Us agreeing with Him.

People's New Testament6:5 He could there do no mighty work. Matthew states the reason: Because of their unbelief (Mt 13:58). It was not from want of power, but of the conditions that he required. Those in need of help must either have faith enough to seek his help, or their friends must have faith. As faith is the condition of the salvation of the soul, so Christ required it as a condition of the salvation of the body from disease or death.

God, in His soverignty, has chosen to partner up with Us, His sons as co laborers.

pinetree · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
Can you provide scriptural proof for this? And in the interim I'm still digesting the rest of your post. I may have more questions.

BTW try to make your comments brief and clear.

Peace

no one here has said they dont believe in healings...

why are you avoiding the Paul issue?

I mean the simple fact is,you keep holding up the absolutes,then when I show there is not an absolute,it is only right to discuss that...

thanks..

JimfromOhio · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
Can you provide scriptural proof for this? And in the interim I'm still digesting the rest of your post. I may have more questions.

BTW try to make your comments brief and clear.

Peace

This doctrine is so complicated and you want simple answers? I am curious, how long have you been a Christian? Being a Christian is never easy and doctrines are not easy. However, there are those who have simple minds who prefer easy answers. Great faiths from Old and New Testaments didn't get their answers easy or didn't get any answers until years later.

This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ.

We have to remember this verse: Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

In reality, the blessings are from God, the Holy Spirit-and using that person as an instrument to do God's will and plan. God always answer my prayer. ALWAYS. Do I like some of His answers? Nope just like I didn't like my parents' answers when I was a kid.

God does promise that He will answer prayers but His answers can vary and often we missed His true answers. God will not respond to self-centered requests unless it is according to His good and perfect will (His plans). Mature Christians will not be discouraged for a "no" answer because it is more than likely that the answer is delayed because of His plans.

The cause of failure (healing) is not failure itself but rather, other reasons why God chose to wait or look for grace that He have provided or any other answers He already gave that we may be over-looking. God does answer in a different way. The answer may not be the one you like or accept but God will give it to you anyway. That's FAITH.

In Matthew 6:9-13 deals with the first half focusing on God, His will and plans before coming to our personal petitions. God does not always say yes to every prayer even though we expect Him to do so. We are not to have faith in prayer but rather have faith in God and His character. We have to understand that God may be delaying the answers because He has something better for us than what we have asked (John 11:1-6; Luke 5:1-16; Luke 8:40-56). Also keep in mind that God may be with-holding what we ask in order to do special work that He have placed us according to His plan and will (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Remember, God knows before you ask because He is ALMIGHTY God. Romans 8:26 says that "The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for".

If one cannot be God-Centered, then that person is too busy focusing on "self" (i.e. healing).

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Exactly! If Scripture says it, but we dont see it, then it's not God that
is the liar.

In His Sovereignty He set His kindom up as it has pleased Him.
Evidently He couldnt do any mighty work here because of their unbelief.
You can check the greek, and it says the same thing.. He could not:
5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.

That's right, He set up HIS kindgom as HE desired, and then told
us to get our mind changed because it was at hand.... within us
to be sure.

Carnality, but that has nothing to do with healing.
Healing is HIS will. WE line our will up with His..
not the other way around.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.

Scripture says it's both, working in tandem.
Us agreeing with Him.

People's New Testament6:5 He could there do no mighty work. Matthew states the reason: Because of their unbelief (Mt 13:58). It was not from want of power, but of the conditions that he required. Those in need of help must either have faith enough to seek his help, or their friends must have faith. As faith is the condition of the salvation of the soul, so Christ required it as a condition of the salvation of the body from disease or death.

God, in His soverignty, has chosen to partner up with Us, His sons as co laborers.

Good!! Simple truth. You provide clear and simple explanations. Beautiful !!

Peace

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
This doctrine is so complicated and you want simple answers? (i.e. healing).

Not complicated at all. So, simple a child could understand. I love the simplicity of the Gospel.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

But what about the proof? You made a statement and can't explain it?

Maybe we can incorporate some of our friends to help explain what you mean regarding this statement:

Your question: "Is divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not?"

I can't comment unless I'm sure what you mean. I don't want to make any assumptions.

And there's another comment you made that requires some proof.

<B>Originally Posted by JimfromOhio

God heals in this "life-time" is man's perspective from self-centered doctrine while the Bible clearly says God heals according to His will and HIS TIME (God-Centered).

</B>
Can you provide scriptural proof for this? And in the interim I'm still digesting the rest of your post. I may have more questions.

BTW try to make your comments brief and clear.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

Merlin · Sep 26, 2008

Can you provide scriptural proof for this?

This doctrine is so complicated...

nice dodge

spiritman · Sep 26, 2008

Merlin said:
nice dodge

Yea, he probably plays dodge ball? I think there are a few others that play on the same team.

pinetree · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
Yea, he probably plays dodge ball? I think there are a few others that play on the same team.

Paul scriptures.?.

JimfromOhio · Sep 26, 2008

Merlin said:
nice dodge

Faith teachers and faith believers are full of words while real faith requires more.

Many Christians have spent their time correcting their faith symptoms rather than allowing the Holy Spirit lead their faith. Real faith knows only one way and willing to allow God lead us as He did with great faiths in the Scriptures.

Sanctification is intended to train Christians out of our worldly security and awaken us to the fact that we are to TRUST God during our trials or fall but at the same time, don't trust ourselves or trust our faith. TRUST GOD. In the book of James, the entire letter is about living faith during trials and list the tests intended to reveal the legitimacy of someone's faith. The VERY first test is the test of severe trials which means that we need to understand the strength or the genuineness of our own faith. Trials cannot destroy true faith; they only put it to the test and strengthen it as in spiritual training.

JimfromOhio · Sep 26, 2008

spiritman said:
Yea, he probably plays dodge ball? I think there are a few others that play on the same team.

I remember this verse written by Paul, “If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing” (1 Tim. 6:3-4). God holds us accountable for what we believe as well as how we think about the truth He has revealed.

I see many give "lip-service" to the importance of doctrine but frown upon meaningful doctrinal discussions.

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