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The happy Objectivist

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'Self-existent' necessarily implies not being what it is as a result of anything else. Whatever is self-existent is not an effect of external causes. If it bumps into another, and bounces off into another direction, not only are both subject to external principles, but both are effects of the other.
If self-existent means not an effect by any external cause then existence as such is self-existent, by your own definition of self-existent. What could possibly be external to existence except for something that doesn't exist? Blank out. The concept self presupposes existence so there is no need for the dichotomy you propose, i.e., necessary (self-existent) vs. contingent.
 
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QvQ

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Their existence remains unaltered even as their position in space is altered.
Are you saying there is a finite number of particles that are moving, simply rearranging themself in patterns?
The molecules in motion are creating the patterns we call reality in a very thin edge of space/time?
Is that what you mean?
 
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Moral Orel

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Are you saying there is a finite number of particles that are moving, simply rearranging themself in patterns?
The molecules in motion are creating the patterns we call reality in a very thin edge of space/time?
Is that what you mean?
No.
 
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QvQ

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Would you agree everything in time and space is in motion therefore changing in both position and form? Only in position? Only in form?

I am asking to understand your point of view. I find, given the constraints of forums, that people end up lobbing one liners at one another without a true understanding of the other person's point of view.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'm more than halfway through it but I've heard it all before. I don't accept his definitions. Axiomatic concepts can not be defined in terms of other concepts, they can only be defined ostensively and there is no warrant for dividing a fundamental concept the way he does. As I said, it's pure rationalism. By what means is he aware of this kind of being that is unlike everything else? Please answer this one question for me if nothing else. Is it some way other than imagining?

I can imagine the nothingness, the state of things before there was a Universe, or anything else, except God. But I can't imagine God. But imagination is irrelevant to being aware of God. There is the witness of the Spirit of God to the heart of those it inhabits, and the presence of God one begins to accept as such, which is (at least for me) kind of analogous to the presence of someone I live with, that I am not looking at or hearing speak, a presence I am not at most times thinking of but that is nevertheless there. There is also something else, that I don't know how to begin to describe. But the experience of God is not epistemic, in the sense that it is not useful in proving God's existence or person, (except, perhaps, to the one experiencing his presence etc.), in the way we consider most other things we see (for example, "I know I exist, because I experience awareness".)

Math and reason are used in science all the time. Logical sequence serves for epistemic evidence, though one may not even realize they are using it that way, to arrive at conclusions. Scientists would prefer to have epistemic evidence to prove the steps in their logic, and they would like to have experiments to observe what they theorize, but they can't always, and instead assume an "IF" to continue with their logical progression.

So it is with the rational proof of the existence of God. The cosmological argument works, and is elegantly simple. It is plenty of reason for me to say, that it makes more sense that God (being first cause, and I will accept no other) should exist, than that I exist, but here I am, so obviously, God is. But it would take longer than the many thousands, (or billions), of years to demonstrate experimentally, the many causal steps between First Cause, and the effect, Me.

I assume you are referring to "existence" as the "fundamental concept" that you see no warrant for Sproul to divide. I would say that 'existence' is a fundamental concept, but only as fundamental as any other principle that depends on First Cause for its meaning. If you say "existence is", I say, "existence is because First Cause is." and not the other way around. Existence, logic and reason, and even fact reality, itself, derive from First Cause. He is not subject to them as though they are fundamental principles into which he must fit, but they depend on him for their rule over other effects.

Of course, we use them in describing him; we say that he exists, and that what he does must fit logic, and that he is real, but we only mean by these whatever WE know them to be, and should not use them to say that he is subject to them. God is what he is, and does what he does, and all else proceeds from that, or he is not first cause.

And by the way, existence as existence is self-existent and logically could not be otherwise. It's important to define what existence means. The concept existence subsumes everything that exists including everything that has ever existed, exists now, and will ever exist. This is because time and place are measurements that are despecified, like all other measurements, in the forming of an abstraction. This is why a theory of concepts is crucial.

Nothing, not even existence, can cause itself. That is self-contradictory. Self-existence, a term we use to help us think, is at best a principle, and non-governing over effects (i.e. it doesn't cause anything), but only defining of other things, and not itself. But even as a fundamental principle, if indeed it is a fundamental principle, then, it is caused.

One can assert this about anything one imagines. Sparky does not answer to form, whatever that is supposed to mean. Sparky is an absolute, uncaused, self-existent, unchanging, necessary being that is a different kind of being from every other kind.

You said Sparky was a unicorn. Thus, he answers to the form we know as 'Unicorn'. God does not. All things derive what they ontologically are, from first cause, and not he from them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nope. Only their location changed. Only their location is an effect. The particles remain the same particles. The particles themselves are not an effect and their existence is not impacted by the bump. Their existence remains unaltered even as their position in space is altered. The particles are what they are regardless of whether or not they ever touch another particle.
Nicely answered. I applaud you.

I think what I mean is that they are nevertheless affected, each by an exterior principle, that is not from within at least one of them. If they are first causes, I think you can see how that would not work. But we are trying to argue 'self-existent' which is a bit more work. Intuitively I know that not only is first-cause by definition self-existent, but that self-existent is necessarily first-cause, but I have not so far been able to show that. I will have to work on it some more.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If self-existent means not an effect by any external cause then existence as such is self-existent, by your own definition of self-existent. What could possibly be external to existence except for something that doesn't exist? Blank out. The concept self presupposes existence so there is no need for the dichotomy you propose, i.e., necessary (self-existent) vs. contingent.
You are making our descriptive principle, 'existence', a thing. You are conflating the adjective, "existent", with the noun, "existence".

And I can put any word I wish to put, though it would be silly to use unrelated words, to the two concepts, 1) that which derives its existence from something else, and 2) that which exists in and of itself, without derivation from something else.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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You are making our descriptive principle, 'existence', a thing. You are conflating the adjective, "existent", with the noun, "existence".

And I can put any word I wish to put, though it would be silly to use unrelated words, to the two concepts, 1) that which derives its existence from something else, and 2) that which exists in and of itself, without derivation from something else.
What could all of existence have to be a derivative of? Existence exists and only existence exists. There is nothing for it to be derived from, therefore it is a self-existent, eternal, unchanging fact.

Existent is a noun, so is existence. The concept existence subsumes all existents. I am one existent out of many that make up existence.

You're looking to words when you should be looking at reality.

The problem is you don't understand how concepts work in the hierarchy of knowledge. This is easy to fix. I recommend you read Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. It's a great achievement and it will make all this clear though it may take several readings and much thinking.
 
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Moral Orel

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Would you agree everything in time and space is in motion therefore changing in both position and form? Only in position? Only in form?
Not everything changes in form.

Motion is relative to your frame of reference. From the frame of reference of any given object, the rest of the universe is moving while the object remains completely still. That's Relativity, and that's a tough subject, though.
 
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QvQ

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Motion is relative to your frame of reference. From the frame of reference of any given object, the rest of the universe is moving while the object remains completely still.
Thank you I understand the theory of relativity. I am interested in chaos now (chaos is the amplified effects of tiny changes in the present moment that lead to long-term unpredictability)"
"Nothing could be more predictable than the swinging pendulum of a grandfather clock. But if you separate a pendulum halfway down by adding another axle, the swinging becomes wildly unpredictable."

*Whoever wrote that above quote about predictable swinging of the pendulum of a Grandfather clock has never owned one but it explains the general idea.
 
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Moral Orel

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I think what I mean is that they are nevertheless affected, each by an exterior principle, that is not from within at least one of them. If they are first causes, I think you can see how that would not work. But we are trying to argue 'self-existent' which is a bit more work. Intuitively I know that not only is first-cause by definition self-existent, but that self-existent is necessarily first-cause, but I have not so far been able to show that. I will have to work on it some more.
Again, you have your own special definitions for "first-cause" and "self-existent". I am only talking about "uncaused". It didn't begin to exist because of something else. That's it.

If it is your contention that for something to be uncaused, then it must also have other properties, then the burden is on you to show that these other properties are a logical necessity. We both agree that something can exist without a cause. That's our starting point, and you need to build from there.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Boundaries and measures are by definition finite.
It is like a toy (gravity) ship (structure) in a bucket of water (mass/energy). Pour the water on the ground (infinite space), the ship sinks. Make the water solid (hyper density) such as ice, the ship stops. If the water was in infinite amount, the ship could have an entirely different structure. It would have to be the exact amount of mass/energy for that structure . To maintain the train in a gravitational field for eternity would require measures and boundaries. Eternity may be the field but the train is finite.

I'm not sure quite what this thread is about as it doesn't make a lick of sense, but there is a notable factual error here.

Solid water is not "hyperdense". In fact solid water near freezing temperature is *lower* in density than liquid water. (That's why it floats.)

None of the other physical "analogies" make any sense.
 
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QvQ

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Solid water is not "hyperdense". In fact solid water near freezing temperature is *lower* in density than liquid water. (That's why it floats.)
Yes, it is poorly worded. It is parenthesis to distinguish hyperdensity as a property of gravity, mass/energy, without making any assumptions about temperature. Toy ships would definitely slow to a stop in a black hole.
 
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Moral Orel

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The infinite regress is a chain with a beginning but no end.
The infinite regress is a chain with no beginning.

If the gravity necessary to maintain the structure of the "thing' were present, it would have to be measured in the correct density to maintain the structures. There would have to be bounds to confine the correct measure for the structure, train, slope. Boundaries and measures are by definition finite.
Boundaries and measurements are things humans create and do (respectively). They aren't constraints on physics. The universe is probably infinite in size.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes, it is poorly worded. It is parenthesis to distinguish hyperdensity as a property of gravity, mass/energy, without making any assumptions about temperature. Toy ships would definitely slow to a stop in a black hole.

OK...

"Hyperdensity" isn't a property of gravity. Gravity is a psueudoforce. It doesn't have "density" (hyper or otherwise).

How would a "toy ship" "slow to a stop" in a black hole.

The physics in general doesn't make any sense.
 
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Moral Orel

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Toy ships would definitely slow to a stop in a black hole.
Toy ships would appear to stop from an outside frame of reference. A frame of reference inside the black hole would see the toy ship continue traveling forever.
 
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QvQ

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They aren't constraints on physics. The universe is probably infinite in size.
All possible Universes are finite since there is only a finite age and, therefore, a limiting horizon. The geometry may be flat or open, and therefore infinite in possible size (it continues to grow forever), but the amount of mass and time in our Universe is finite.
 
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Hans Blaster

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All possible Universes are finite since there is only a finite age and, therefore, a limiting horizon. The geometry may be flat or open, and therefore infinite in possible size (it continues to grow forever), but the amount of mass and time in our Universe is finite.

The *observable Universe* must be finite in size due to the finite period of expansion, but there is nothing that says that the earlier "hot, dense state" had to be finite. (Our Universe may also just be an expansion of a finite piece of the pre-existant infinite state.)
 
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QvQ

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Hyperdensity" isn't a property of gravity. Gravity is a psueudoforce. It doesn't have "density" (hyper or otherwise).
How would a "toy ship" "slow to a stop" in a black hole.
Gravity structures the mass/energy.

"A black hole is a place in space where gravity pulls so much that even light can not get out. The gravity is so strong because matter has been squeezed into a tiny space." The toy ship would stop, definitely.

Also, whether this universe melts down and re-creates another is highly speculative. It may be a variation of a perpetual motion machine Right now, the universe is finite.

(this is wandering off topic into a discussion of physics rather than hypothetical trains and chains. That is fine, I like physics but as a topic for another thread. What say you?)
 
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