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2BeholdHisGlory

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If it helps you, I'll ascribe to Godhead.

Yes, it pleased the Father that in Jesus Christ should dwell all fulness

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

As it says,

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 
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SongOnTheWind

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What's the point in starting a discussion if no one is allowed to discuss? No one is infallible so it's useless to refuse questions or clarification.

What a shame, it's actually a super deep, profound, detective-candy-like subject. I long to know not just more ABOUT God, but more OF God. His Word says we have to be of the mind of Christ, and I don't think that just means morally. We are to have an in-depth understanding, and a lot of that process is asking questions. John 17v3 tells us that knowing God is eternal life.

If anyone wants to pick this up where the OP left off, please do. Also, I'd love to see a response to 2BeholdHisGlory's scripture references, all of which I agree with in the context of this discussion. There are some really good jumping off points there too.

Thoughts?
 
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Clare73

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The humanity of Jesus did not pre-exist his conception in the womb of Mary.
The divinity of the Son was the same form of God as both the Father and the Son, which have always existed, without beginning.
 
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2BeholdHisGlory

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This is one of those topics where scripture seems to matter little because even if you post them (they are typically not adressed) but rather the person becomes the target. Could be why its not brought up so much to examine because oftentimes becomes a reason to examine the person and not the scriptures? Its actually not as bad as it used to be from many years back a I have witnessed it so its gotten much better but it stil happens.

Edit:typo
 
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SongOnTheWind

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The humanity of Jesus did not pre-exist his conception in the womb of Mary.
The divinity of the Son was the same form of God as both the Father and the Son, which have always existed, without beginning.

Agreed. The Son is begotten, not made.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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Well, let's hope we can proceed in a more sensible manner. We know in part, but we can still discuss. Looking forward to seeing the discussion unfold
 
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Andrewn

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Well, let's hope we can proceed in a more sensible manner. We know in part, but we can still discuss. Looking forward to seeing the discussion unfold
If you have any questions or comments plz feel free to post them. I don't think anyone will waste their time commenting on the random verses posted by some and trying to guess why they quote them.
 
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2BeholdHisGlory

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Agreed. The Son is begotten, not made.


You can probably use both words made and begotten without it being heretical, just use them as written, for example

Gal 4:4...God sent forth his Son, made of a woman

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,
in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


There are others but I dont know why its written that way that one must be acknowledged without use of the other as it pertains to Christ.
 
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Der Alte

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In the KJV John 1:14 is not translated correctly.
NIV John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Greek word εγενετο incorrectly translated "was made" in the KJV is aorist, middle deponent, indicative, third person singular. The middle deponent is translated as active. In the active voice the subject, in this case the Logos, performs the action. The logos acting on Himself became flesh.
Some folks will cherry pick versions to find one that supports their denominational assumptions/presuppositional.
 
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2BeholdHisGlory

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Cant even tell the difference between becoming the seed of David or being made of the seed of David, or the Son being made of a woman made under the law. The creed states begotten not made (specifically) but in which way since Acts 13:33 speaks of his being begotten from the dead (where he is also made a high priest) so both still can apply there as well

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,

Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

This day doesnt even apply to Jesus birth on earth but his being raised up where he "was made a high priest" for ever.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children,
in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


 
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disciple Clint

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MY NOTE: Jesus Christ preexisted/began in the same Form/substance/essence as God the Father)
Jesus did not begin, He always was. He is not subordinate to the Father.
 
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BrotherJJ

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Jesus did not begin, He always was. He is not subordinate to the Father.

1st: Pre-existed isn't making the claim, Jesus was created. See (MY NOTE) at the bottom of post #17. My statement is: He's from everlasting, HAS NO BEGINING.

Next:
Find these and other scripture cited in the OP & posts # 34 & 35 that I believe teach the Father has authority.

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(MY NOTE: Man is Head/has authority over the woman, Christ is Head/has authority over the man & God the Father is Head/has authority over God the Son)

Pay special attention vs 28!

1 Cor 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(MY NOYE: When all is complete/fulfilled the Son will what? SUBJECT, all things INCLUDING Himself, unto His Father, whom gave it all to him.)

Rom 8:17 We're children, "heirs also", "heirs of God & fellow heirs with Christ
(NOTE: Believers are fellow heirs of God the Father, with/thru Christ. If Christ is an HEIR, doesn't the Father have authority/out rank the Son?)

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, thru whom also He made the world
(NOTE: God the Father APPOINTED God the Son HEIR of ALL things within our realm. QUESTION; Equal? Or does the Father have authority/out rank in order to APPOINT the Son?)

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(MY NOTE: Jesus/God the Son say's, I ascend to My Father & My God. QUESTION; Equal? Or is the Father in authority/out rank the Son?)

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
(MY NOTE: Jesus/God the Son say's, I will write the name of My God [Jesus call the Father, His God]. QUESTION; Equal? Or does the Father [Jesus stated as being His God] have authority over/out rank the Son? BTW in the Rev verse It's the risen, glorified Jesus speaking)

I respect your opinion & respectfully disagree with your statement: He's not subordinate to the Father. JJ
 
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disciple Clint

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What Is the Economic and Immanent Trinity? | Zondervan Academic
 
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BrotherJJ

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disciple Clint

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Again, you're welcome to your views. I have no interest in the link you sent. I can't discuss/respond to a video. If you'd like to discuss this threads posted topics, I'll try to reply.
You question why the Father sends the Son, I sent you the answer, if you truly want to know you have to be willing to accept instruction.
 
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BrotherJJ

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You question why the Father sends the Son, I sent you the answer, if you truly want to know you have to be willing to accept instruction.

The OP never questions why the Father sent the Son.

It's point is; according to [MANY] scripture the OP cites to include the few I sent you today post #52.

The notion Father & Son are co-equal in all things doesn't line up with scripture.
 
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disciple Clint

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The OP never questions why the Father sent the Son.

It's point is; according to [MANY] scripture the OP cites to include the few I sent you today post #52.

The notion Father & Son are co-equal in all things doesn't line up with scripture.
Would you like a link that explains The Nicene Creed ?
 
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BrotherJJ

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Would you like a link that explains The Nicene Creed ?

No thanks, I can't debate or have a discussion with a document. Would you like to address the OP or the verses I sent you?

I'm off to Church, I'll be back later this afternoon. Best wishes, JJ
 
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disciple Clint

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The OP never questions why the Father sent the Son.

It's point is; according to [MANY] scripture the OP cites to include the few I sent you today post #52.

The notion Father & Son are co-equal in all things doesn't line up with scripture.
I think your confusion is being caused by Jesus being 100% man as well as 100% God. The Gospels convey his communications as a man for the most part.
 
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hedrick

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Philip. 2:6 has sparked a lot of discussion among interpreters. The term "form" has a range of possible understandings, and so there are several suggestions for what 2:6 means. It seems clear that the author of this section (not necessarily Paul - he may well be quoting an existing hymn) avoided saying simply that Christ was God. Indeed the hymn ends up saying that because of his humble obedience God exalted him and gave him the divine name, though this is something that applied from the beginning, per 2:6. (Indeed to me the whole point of the Trinity is that Christ's obedience shows us something about God himself. He is not just the creator, but the humble servant.) This seems to me like Col 2:19, which says that the fulness of God is present in him without simply identifying him as God.

That is, of course, consistent with orthodox Christian theology, in which Christ is both human and God, with the Logos fully present in the human without removing its humanity or allowing us to confuse it with divinity.
 
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