Pharisee

[OllieFranz]

This is, in a way, meant to be a parallel thread to Jet's "Appeal to Fundamentalists," however it will be open to discussion by all and not just "fundamentalists." (Though I suspect that Jet intended to include most consevative Christians, whether they be fundamentalists, evangelicals, Pentacostls, Charismatics or choose not to identify with any particular such movement; and I further sespect that it was not his intention to "exclude" non-conservatives, but rather his appeal was to a concern that only affected conservative Christians.)

I'm going to begin with a couple of questions: "Who were the Pharisees?" and "Why did Jesus choose a Pharisee as one of the characters in His parable about prayer and forgiveness in Luke 18:9-14?"
[BIBLE]Luke 18:9-14[/BIBLE]

Although the thread is intended for an open discussion once it focusses on gays and lesbians, I would prefer that everyone else let the conservatives answer these two questions without comment.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

This is, in a way, meant to be a parallel thread to Jet's "Appeal to Fundamentalists," however it will be open to discussion by all and not just "fundamentalists." (Though I suspect that Jet intended to include most consevative Christians, whether they be fundamentalists, evangelicals, Pentacostls, Charismatics or choose not to identify with any particular such movement; and I further sespect that it was not his intention to "exclude" non-conservatives, but rather his appeal was to a concern that only affected conservative Christians.)

I'm going to begin with a couple of questions: "Who were the Pharisees?" and "Why did Jesus choose a Pharisee as one of the characters in His parable about prayer and forgiveness in Luke 18:9-14?"
[bible]Luke 18:9-14[/bible]

Although the thread is intended for an open discussion once it focusses on gays and lesbians, I would prefer that everyone else let the conservatives answer these two questions without comment.

You are correct Ollie, I was regarding fundamentalists in a very loose manner. I suppose conservative is a better defining term, I just used fundamentalist since that is the group that is always mentioned during these conversations.

 

[OllieFranz]

It has been almost a week, and no one has answered my questions. I'd like to believe that those who do not identify themselves as Conservative Christians have not done so because of my request. I'm not certain why those who do so self-identify. The most likely reason (or so it seems to me) would be that they are wary of the consequences of giving a poor answer. The second most likely is that they are also chary of giving a correct answer, without knowing where I want to direct that answer.

So I'll answer the questions myself, and get on with the main purpose of the thread.

The Pharisees were men who loved God and studied His scriptures. For the most part, they were not of the priestly class nor the princely class. They just an abiding love for God and for His Law. They were men, humans, and not angels. They like all of us were sinners and fell short of the glory of God, and like all human groups there were members who did not even really try to live up to the ideals of the group.

But for the most part, they were sincere, God-fearing people. All of modern Judaism descends from the Pharisees. They are the ones who established a balance, being in the world, but not truly of it so when, after the Destruction of the Temple and into the subsequent Diaspora, all of the other Jewish movements perished, the Pharisaic tradition survived.

The same principles that sustained the Pharisaic Jews through the Diaspora were rediscovered by the protesting Christian sects in the 15th and 16th centuries, and were the basis of the Reformation.

At the time of Jesus' ministry on Earth, Pharisees were of two rival schools. The School of Hillel, led by Rabbi Hillel's grandson, Rabbi Gamaliel, and the school of Shammai. The two would often argue over the meaning of the Scriptures. In theory, the reason for the debates was to help strengthen their faith. "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17)" In practice, though, they were as I said, men, not saints.

We would consider Rabbi Gamaliel and the School of Hillel more liberal: more concerned with mercy, and the School of Shamai as more conservative: more concerned with righteousness. Most of the encounters between Jesus and "the scribes and Pharisees" recorded in the Gospels were with the school of Shammai, who thought Jesus went beyond even the Hillels.

It was they who complained about Him associating with sinners, and about Him allowing His disciples to break the Sabbath laws. And it was they who asked the infamous divorce question: "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for any cause?" What they were asking about was a relatively new divorce proceedure only allowed by the leadership for a little over a generation. It was called a "divorce for any reason."

What it meant was that the couple did not have to disclose the grounds for the divorce. Basically it was like a no-fault divorce. It is likely that this is what Matthew meant when he said that Joseph considered putting Mary away "privily." This new divorce was proposed by, and it's acceptance was because of the influence of Hillel.

The School of Shammai thought that Jesus would agree with the Hillel position, and when they asked this, it was in order to argue why this new form of divorce was not in God's will. Jesus pretended to misunderstand their purpose and began to explain why no divorce is in God's will.

The reason that Jesus made one of the characters in the parable of the publican and the Pharisee is that the sinn that the Pharisee commits is one that can only be committed by someone who loves the Lord, and loves His scriptures, and His laws, but who has become "so Heavenly minded that he's no Earthly good." He sees the publican as someone who has chosen to live a life of sin, and he is thankful that God has blessed him, without recognizing that God has blessed him so that he can in turn, pass on that blessing to others.

Jesus also addresses those who do recognize that they need to help those who are not as blessed as they are, but blind themselves to their own need for continual blessing and renewal. Those that seek to correct the flaws they see in others without constant vigilence over their own shortcomings. The clearest example of this is in Matthew 7:1-5

Which brings us to the purpose of this thread. What is the best way to uplift our fellow man? When does instruction become correction and correction become rebuke? When (if ever) is rebuke necessary?

 

[savedandhappy1]

Jesus also addresses those who do recognize that they need to help those who are not as blessed as they are, but blind themselves to their own need for continual blessing and renewal. Those that seek to correct the flaws they see in others without constant vigilence over their own shortcomings. The clearest example of this is in Matthew 7:1-5

Which brings us to the purpose of this thread. What is the best way to uplift our fellow man? When does instruction become correction and correction become rebuke? When (if ever) is rebuke necessary?

So what is your definition of when someone is ignoring their own flaws while correcting others of theirs?

Why can't someone see and corrected someones flaws without it meaning that they aren't looking at their own, too?

Could someone have the same flaws and so is trying to keep someone from committing what they themselves wish they could always avoid?

When is rebuke necessary....................if ever? The Bible says rebuke is necessary, so when is it correct for us to say it isn't ever necessary, if that is what you are saying?

 

[Phinehas2]

Thanks for the question.
Who were the Pharisees?
They were were one of four major schools of thought within the Jewish religion and part of the Sanhedrin.
Why did Jesus choose a Pharisee as one of the characters in His parable about prayer and forgiveness in Luke 18:9-14?"
The passage tells us, because they trusted in themselves for their righteousness. In terms of the gay and lesbian debate he might have referred to gays and lesbians as they try and justify their acts.
The Pharisees were big on challenging the truth of what Jesus taught, much like the gay and lesbian arguments. Our righteousness as Christians is through Christ alone, through His blood shed for forgiveness of sin.

 

[OllieFranz]

So what is your definition of when someone is ignoring their own flaws while correcting others of theirs?

Why can't someone see and corrected someones flaws without it meaning that they aren't looking at their own, too?

Could someone have the same flaws and so is trying to keep someone from committing what they themselves wish they could always avoid?

When is rebuke necessary....................if ever? The Bible says rebuke is necessary, so when is it correct for us to say it isn't ever necessary, if that is what you are saying?

My purpose in this thread was just to ask the questions and start a discussion. Your additional questions are a good start.

I used the words "instruction," "correction," and "rebuke" in my questions because that is how many Conservative Christians think about what it is they are doing. Many of those who are being "instructed," "corrected," or "rebuked" see process, and your motives differently.

I'm hoping this dialogue will be a chance for both to understand the others' viewpoint better.

 

[savedandhappy1]

My purpose in this thread was just to ask the questions and start a discussion. Your additional questions are a good start.

I used the words "instruction," "correction," and "rebuke" in my questions because that is how many Conservative Christians think about what it is they are doing. Many of those who are being "instructed," "corrected," or "rebuked" see process, and your motives differently.

I'm hoping this dialogue will be a chance for both to understand the others' viewpoint better.

There have been several threads where I have taken the time to post what and why I am here posting. Hoping that understanding would come, but was shocked when the only response I received was another person who believes homosexuality is a sin, asking someone who posted an attack (not necessarily to me) right after my post. No response to that or to my post, if the attack posted wasn't meant for me. So I hope more understanding comes from your attempts.

Luke 17:1-4
1 Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!
2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

The above scriptures tell us to be careful to not offend, but it also tells us to rebuke a brother/sister if they sin against you. It is a fine line between these instruction, and I'm sure it has not been achieved by all of us at all times. Yet, we don't see the scriptures say not to rebuke for fear of offending, so we continue on.

1 Tim 5:1-2
1 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers,
2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity.

1 Tim 5:17-25
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.
23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
24 Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.
25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

I have often wondered how we should approach the scriptures about honoring and not rebuking elders in these threads when in some instantaneous young posters............well some of their post seem like attacks, not honoring.

Anyhow above is just a few of the different reasons we are to rebuke, which is why some here post. Some other scriptures are: 2 Tim 4:2, Titus 1:13; 2:15, Heb. 12:5. (I didn't want to make this a very long post by posting all them)

2 Tim 3:12-17
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I have read several post that state we can't fully know the truth, but if we look at verse 17, we see how we can be completely and thoroughly equipped to do the Lord's work.

Why do I do what I do?

First, I feel that the Lord wants me to, and so until He tells me to shake the dust off my feet and move on I will do my best to let the Holy Spirit use me.

Second, I am not a perfect person, so just like my brothers and sisters in the Lord I fall at times, and I hope and pray that I would be loved enough to be rebuked, corrected and exhorted.

Maybe if I tell what those 3 words mean to me it would help.

Rebuke=To criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand.

I hope and pray that most of my post aren't considered sharp rebuking because I have tried not to sound sharp in my post, so it looks like I am not following the scriptures completely. I have always felt that you can get a better response with kindness and sharply responding to post just doesn't seem helpful to me. (even if I am still considered a hateful bigot by alot who disagree with my understanding of the scriptures on homosexuality)

Correct=Conforming to standards; proper: correct behavior.

We see how the scriptures are profitable for these things, and so that is why I use scriptures. This is critizied though almost as if it is evil or that a person is acting holier than others if I they do use scriptures..

Exhort=To make urgent appeal.

I believe that we are living in the last days, which to me means that the Lord could come at anytime, so to me it is urgent and so I try very hard to add to the Kingdom. I know that it could still be what we would consider a long time before the Lord comes, but I can't count on the fact that the Lord will tarry much longer. So this is why I continue to post, knowing that most of those that disagree with me probably aren't going to change their minds, but there are those who read but don't post. So I post for all, so that both sides of this issue is there for prayful consideration to those who are still seeking the answer to this issue.

I'm sorry this is so long, and I really don't think I totally explained all my feelings and reasons so if you have questions or need a better explanation please ask.

 

[Phinehas2]

Thank you so much savedandhappy1, I am sure we would all like to thank you for a comprehensive answer.
Let us not forget that Jesus said that if we obey His commands we will know the truth and the truth will set us free and that our joy will be complete. So rebuking correcting and teaching will lead to our joy in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

+1 great post savednhappy