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Phantom Manuscripts

JM

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There are fundamental empirical-historical problems with such a claim: The most glaring problem is that there is not a single Greek manuscript, papyrus, or early version for the first 300 years of church history that contains a distinct KJV (or Byzantine) reading from a manuscript that reflects a Byzantine text.
Dean Burgon and His Phantom Manuscripts

Isn't this the like the pot calling the kettle black?

For those who use the eclectic critical text method:

Do you not assume the originals were inspired and inerrant? If so, and you don't have them, isn't the original just as much of a 'phantom mss' as a distinct KJV or Byzantine mss?

:scratch:

jm
 

Osage Bluestem

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JM said:
Dean Burgon and His Phantom Manuscripts

Isn't this the like the pot calling the kettle black?

For those who use the eclectic critical text method:

Do you not assume the originals were inspired and inerrant? If so, and you don't have them, isn't the original just as much of a 'phantom mss' as a distinct KJV or Byzantine mss?

:scratch:

jm

The originals are indeed lost and all we can do is trust in God that we have received his accurate word true as can be in translation to the originals through the tradition of copies that have been handed down to us. Currently, I most trust the ESV as my scriptural authority.
 
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JM

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The originals are indeed lost and all we can do is trust in God that we have received his accurate word true as can be in translation to the originals through the tradition of copies that have been handed down to us.

(Rhetorical question) How is that different from those who trust the TR or Majority mss? I don't think it is.

jm
 
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Osage Bluestem

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JM said:
(Rhetorical question) How is that different from those who trust the TR or Majority mss? I don't think it is.

jm

It's not. It's a matter of preference really. Like denominations, one can only follow their conscience in the most informed way they can and do what they believe is true. Some trust the TR some trust the CT. Each has to decide for himself. However, it is true that both can't really be right anymore than two different denominations can both be right. So we strive to find the truest possible position based on our perceptions that we can arrive at.
 
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Michael Kruger made an important point in the Gospel Coalition video I posted, although we do not have the original autographs, we have the original text. All of us with a high view of Scripture can agree on that. From there, for us English folk depending on translations, it's a matter of choosing between two manuscript traditions, one with (far) fewer but older manuscripts or the majority of manuscripts (by far). Either way I think the construction is based on available manuscripts, by carefully comparing them. I think this will always be a difficult subject for me, one I am not sure will be settled for me this side of Heaven. Where I am settled, is on the inspiration, infallability, and inerrancy of Holy Scripture, based on a high and sovereign view of God, and His faithfulness to His people all throughout history.
 
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DanielRB

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While I myself use the critical text primarily (and translations derived from it), I do not think going with the majority text (or slightly different received text) is a fundamental error. The textual families are more similar than different, and no major doctrine is altered by one text or the other.

In some ways I like using the NKJV (Majority Text) because of the layman's text-critical notes showing the differences between the MT and the CT. The CT-derived translations often do not present these notes, or they do in a less than neutral manner.
 
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JM

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original autographs, we have the original text
Again, I don't see how this thought differs from the folks that use the TR (like myself), the MT or the CT. It seems highly subjective based on the scholars opinion, manuscript evidence, etc.

Isn't this really an argument of presuppositions? I mean, the CT folks use a naturalistic method to determine what is and is not canon. The TR folks (not KJVO we are in the Reformed forum so please do not accuse the confessionally Reformed argument for the traditional text KJVO) tend to use a historical argument and local church authority for their text.

The issue is confusing and I'm not sure it needs to be or is really worth all the fuss. I'm pretty convinced the Bible I have in my hand is the word of God and the CT arguments only cause me to doubt so I really don't go for it.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Again, I don't see how this thought differs from the folks that use the TR (like myself), the MT or the CT. It seems highly subjective based on the scholars opinion, manuscript evidence, etc.

I think we should be careful about calling out "subjective", because we believe God continues to be involved with His creation today. Is our conversion merely subjective experience? No. People will hear our interpretations of Scripture, and one common objection is: "that's just your interpretation" objecting on the assumption of personal subjective interpretation. Is all of what we read outside of the Bible, just personal interpretation, just subjective interpretation? Did the translators of the KJV in the process of interpreting from languages into another not make subjective based decisions with the texts they had available? See the can of worms open?

Isn't this really an argument of presuppositions? I mean, the CT folks use a naturalistic method to determine what is and is not canon. The TR folks (not KJVO we are in the Reformed forum so please do not accuse the confessionally Reformed argument for the traditional text KJVO) tend to use a historical argument and local church authority for their text.

I agree it is an argument from presuppositions. Again though, I would be careful to charge CT folks with using a "naturalistic method". I cannot imagine the sweat, tears, and prayers that are the result of the enormous task of translating Scripture, based on what is available. From the time of 1611, thousands of Bible believing scholars have worked on translating Scripture. To say a man like James White or D.A. Carson use a "naturalistic method" in their approach to Scripture, is insulting and absurd. Both of those men are God fearing Christians with a desire to glorify God in everything they do. Their approach to life is God-centered.

The issue is confusing and I'm not sure it needs to be or is really worth all the fuss. I'm pretty convinced the Bible I have in my hand is the word of God and the CT arguments only cause me to doubt so I really don't go for it.

I agree that it can be a confusing issue, and folks like you and I are simply not called by God to be Bible scholars devoted to the original languages. We should appreciate those conservative Calvinist Bible believing inerrantists whom have been decreed to be Bible scholars in the service of God almighty.

You are not alone my brother, in struggling with doubts, my first struggle originated with a KJV-onlyist. I think one of the best CT scholars alive today is Daniel Wallace. His work has helped me personally in removing doubts, and broadening my understanding.
 
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JM

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AW,

The two fellas you mention (White and Carson) seem to be in the minority. I quoted Daniel Wallace before on this very issue. Wallace is a good, Bible believing Christian but he points out that most who actually work in biblical mss deny the central tenets of the faith they are influencing.

He wrote, "As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead."

As a fan of presuppositionalism you know that it is impossible to remain neutral on any issue. I would have to say 70% of the Greek and Hebrew must have had some, just a little, non-Christian influence. I find no confidence in this.

As a weaker brother I must bow out least my faith in the word be shattered. Keep in mind I once attended a Greek Orthodox church where the word has been dogmatically declared and I admit that is a tempting, a flesh pleasing doctrine...may God have mercy!

jm


 
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Osage Bluestem

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Well, it all starts with the idea of sola scriptura. Which is not a traditional doctrine of the Jews or Christians. It is indeed a reformation solution.

That being said, I hold to sola scriptura because I believe it is a necessary doctrine in this time since the reformation. The reason it exists is because of mistrust. Churchmen didn't believe other churchmen were genuine and honest so they had no choice but to look only to the traditional scriptures authoritatively because church leadership had been thrown out the window by the laity due to gross mismanagement on the part of the leadership.

So now we have deleted centuries of tradition and started fresh with only the bible. It was studied and explained in our confessions which is good. However, a question still remains. Do I have the right scriptures? How do I know? The traditional catholic has the same problem as well. Are these really men of apostolic authority preserved by the Holy Ghost leading me?

Thus, we just have faith. We do what we can with what we have. I appeal to scripture because I believe it is the authoritative written word of God through his prophets and apostles. I believe it teaches it is sufficient for us. Is this because of Grace or study? Who knows? The important thing is trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ regardless of where you look for doctrine. The scriptures don't save. They testify to the Holy God who saves. He transcends.
 
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The two fellas you mention (White and Carson) seem to be in the minority. I quoted Daniel Wallace before on this very issue. Wallace is a good, Bible believing Christian but he points out that most who actually work in biblical mss deny the central tenets of the faith they are influencing.

He wrote, "As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead."

As a fan of presuppositionalism you know that it is impossible to remain neutral on any issue. I would have to say 70% of the Greek and Hebrew must have had some, just a little, non-Christian influence. I find no confidence in this.

Great points brother, and important ones. I would just like to point out that major Bible translations have committees with higher standards than this forum, including background, track record, etc. checks. However, because we live in a postmodern age of tolerance, the potential for tampering is greater in theory, than in ages past where the punishment for such tampering may result in death, where a non-believer would not likely even obtain privlidge to access the mss. Correct me if I am overstating the case. I had William Tyndale a believing translator in mind.

As a weaker brother I must bow out least my faith in the word be shattered. Keep in mind I once attended a Greek Orthodox church where the word has been dogmatically declared and I admit that is a tempting, a flesh pleasing doctrine...may God have mercy!

Apart from God the Holy Spirit working through me, I am nothing but weakness, and seasons come and go. I think I somewhat understand where you're coming, though I have not been exactly there. Part of what makes this difficult, is there is both an objective and subjective aspect to the doctrine of inspiration. God revealed Himself to a chosen people, and superintended His revelations in such a way as to not remove individuality or personality from the speaker and writer, while at the same time by the Holy Spirit led to communicate exactly what He intended for them to write. Remove subjectivity and we are left with a mechanical model of inspiration, remove objectivity and we are left with nothing. It is crucial to recognize the importance of both, even in our interpretation of the Word of God. I suspect those Churches which deny Sola Scriptura, go astray on their doctrine of inspiration, with inconsistancy in equivocating the inspiration of Scripture with the interpretations of the Church, such equivocation claims an inspired interpretation. This is also a problem with kjv-onlism, and the view of inspired interpretation from original tongues and mss into another language. The resolution is Sola Scriptura, where Scripture is in a ultimate catagory of authority over interpretation. Here again you are correct about presuppositions, Sola Scriptura being one, based on the objectivity of our self-revealing Triune God, the self-authenticating Christ, and the self-authenticating work of God the Holy Spirit in confirming the testimony of the objective Sacred Scripture to us. It is beautiful how God works in marvelous ways, through diverse manners!

Btw, if or when you feel stronger, you might check out a little book called "Translating Truth" by Wayne Grudem, Leland Ryken, John Collins, Vern Poythress, and Bruce Winter, with a forward by J.I. Packer.
 
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