Peter, the Rock, the Keys, and the Chair

[Lost4words]

As an apologist for the Catholic Church he is outstanding, but a theologian he is not.

He is a very well known theologian and apologist.

 

[bbbbbbb]

He is a very well known theologian and apologist.

I am certain that he is well-known in Catholic circles, but outside of the Catholic Church probably not so much. We call all list famous people who rank high on our lists of fame (maybe even including ourselves). Although he is a prolific writer, his works are primarily apologetic and specifically aimed at a Protestant audience. Even his commentary on the gospel of John is apologetic in nature. I have not been able to locate a biography of him online. Which seminaries did he attend and in which seminaries has he taught?

 

[Lost4words]

He used to be a massive anti Catholic. He preached against Catholicism.

He converted to Catholicism after a lot of study etc...

Check out his website..Defenders of the Catholic Faith | Hosted by Stephen K. Ray | Author of "St. John's Gospel", "Upon This Rock", & "Crossing the Tiber"

 

[bbbbbbb]

He used to be a massive anti Catholic. He preached against Catholicism.

He converted to Catholicism after a lot of study etc...

Check out his website..Defenders of the Catholic Faith | Hosted by Stephen K. Ray | Author of "St. John's Gospel", "Upon This Rock", & "Crossing the Tiber"

I have, actually. The fact remains that he is a noted (and notable) Catholic apologist, but is not a recognized Catholic theologian, as far as I can tell. There is a great difference between apologetics and theology.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I am certain that he is well-known in Catholic circles, but outside of the Catholic Church probably not so much. We call all list famous people who rank high on our lists of fame (maybe even including ourselves). Although he is a prolific writer, his works are primarily apologetic and specifically aimed at a Protestant audience. Even his commentary on the gospel of John is apologetic in nature. I have not been able to locate a biography of him online. Which seminaries did he attend and in which seminaries has he taught?

So he's not famous like Protestant theologians like Bultmann and Tillich and Sponge. So what's your concern? That he's merely an apologist and hasn't gone to a Protestant seminary? Big woop! I mean, I respect a consummate theologian like Joseph Ratzinger or Avery Dulles or Andy Weinandy. But Steve Ray has done a great job too. And I'm not going to knock him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So he's not famous like Protestant theologians like Bultmann and Tillich and Sponge. So what's your concern? That he's merely an apologist and hasn't gone to a Protestant seminary? Big woop! I mean, I respect a consummate theologian like Joseph Ratzinger or Avery Dulles or Andy Weinandy. But Steve Ray has done a great job too. And I'm not going to knock him.

Actually, as I am sure you know, there are many well-known Catholic theologians and my Catholic friends tell me that Catholic seminaries (of which my hometown once had four) are quite excellent. There are many contemporary Catholic theologians such as Karl Rahner. The Catholic Church is well-known for its development of Liberation Theology by such well-known Catholic theologians as Gustavo Gutierrez and Leonardo Boff.

In actual fact, the vast majority of Popes are not remembered as theologians. In my personal world I have more interest in apologetics than theology. Just because a fellow has to settle for a lesser role (such as apologist or Pope) in your denomination than theologian hardly means that he is a complete failure.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Actually, as I am sure you know, there are many well-known Catholic theologians and my Catholic friends tell me that Catholic seminaries (of which my hometown once had four) are quite excellent. There are many contemporary Catholic theologians such as Karl Rahner. The Catholic Church is well-known for its development of Liberation Theology by such well-known Catholic theologians as Gustavo Gutierrez and Leonardo Boff.

In actual fact, the vast majority of Popes are not remembered as theologians. In my personal world I have more interest in apologetics than theology. Just because a fellow has to settle for a lesser role (such as apologist or Pope) in your denomination than theologian hardly means that he is a complete failure.

Then what's your beef?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Then what's your beef?

Actually, i have never had a beef. Another poster boasted that he is a great theologian and I merely pointed out the obvious fact that his chosen field is Catholic apologetics (addressed to Protestants) and not Catholic theology (although they are related). My comment raised some Catholic hackles as if I consider theologians to be superior to apologists and, therefore, was belittling him.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Actually, i have never had a beef. Another poster boasted that he is a great theologian and I merely pointed out the obvious fact that his chosen field is Catholic apologetics (addressed to Protestants) and not Catholic theology (although they are related). My comment raised some Catholic hackles as if I consider theologians to be superior to apologists and, therefore, was belittling him.

It did appear that you intended to belittle Steve Ray. My apologies if that was not your intent.

Apologetics is a form of theology, and one of the great Catholic theologians of the last century, Avery Dulles, wrote what some consider to be THE book on apologetics. See https://www.amazon.com/History-Apologetics-Robert-Cardinal-Dulles/dp/0898709334

See also The Rebirth of Apologetics | Avery Cardinal Dulles

If you are not familiar with Avery Dulles or familiar with First Things, now is your chance.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It did appear that you intended to belittle Steve Ray. My apologies if that was not your intent.

Apologetics is a form of theology, and one of the great Catholic theologians of the last century, Avery Dulles, wrote what some consider to be THE book on apologetics. See https://www.amazon.com/History-Apologetics-Robert-Cardinal-Dulles/dp/0898709334

See also The Rebirth of Apologetics | Avery Cardinal Dulles

If you are not familiar with Avery Dulles or familiar with First Things, now is your chance.

Not to belabor my point, but apologetics is hardly a religious endeavor, as defined as follows:

Reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine: "free market apologetics"

The development of the Office of Propaganda in the Catholic Church was the Counter Reformation response to Protestant apologetics, as was the Council of Trent, so apologetics has a lengthy history. However, it lapsed into somnolence in the Catholic Church for a very lengthy period, but was revived in the very late twentieth century primarily in response to major inroads being made by Protestants, specifically in Central and South America into the Catholic Church. Until recently it has been very much in a defensive mode, but now is taking an offensive stand in an effort not merely to regain "lapsed" Catholics, but to also convert Protestants.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not to belabor my point, but apologetics is hardly a religious endeavor, as defined as follows:

Reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine: "free market apologetics"

You ARE belaboring whatever point you are trying to make.

In context everyone else knows we are talking about religious apologetics and not free market apologetics or any other sort of secular apologetics.

The development of the Office of Propaganda in the Catholic Church was the Counter Reformation response to Protestant apologetics, as was the Council of Trent, so apologetics has a lengthy history. However, it lapsed into somnolence in the Catholic Church for a very lengthy period, but was revived in the very late twentieth century primarily in response to major inroads being made by Protestants, specifically in Central and South America into the Catholic Church. Until recently it has been very much in a defensive mode, but now is taking an offensive stand in an effort not merely to regain "lapsed" Catholics, but to also convert Protestants.

You really could benefit by reading the Avery Dulles essay I linked to above. Of course if you don't want to ....

 

[bbbbbbb]

You ARE belaboring whatever point you are trying to make.

In context everyone else knows we are talking about religious apologetics and not free market apologetics or any other sort of secular apologetics.

You really could benefit by reading the Avery Dulles essay I linked to above. Of course if you don't want to ....

The essay actually is quite interesting on several levels. Apologetics is hardly limited to theologians and Avery Dulles seems to be addressing the use of apologetics within a theological context, that is, a context in which theologians discourse with each other. The purpose of such apologetics is to convince other theologians of the truth of one's own theology relative to the perceived errors of the other theologian.

What Messrs. Ray and Hahn, et. al. are engaging in is not that form of apologetics, but one which is intended to speak specifically to a popular audience - the man in the pew, as it were, especially the man in the Protestant pew. Despite Avery Dulles' claims to the contrary, popular Catholic apologetics never really disappeared from the scene, as witnessed by the very charismatic and effective efforts of Bishop Fulton Sheen. To associate popular apologetics (Catholic or otherwise) with the theological works of such eminent theologians as Thomas Aquinas, is really quite absurd.

 

[tz620q]

What Messrs. Ray and Hahn, et. al. are engaging in is not that form of apologetics, but one which is intended to speak specifically to a popular audience - the man in the pew, as it were, especially the man in the Protestant pew. Despite Avery Dulles' claims to the contrary, popular Catholic apologetics never really disappeared from the scene, as witnessed by the very charismatic and effective efforts of Bishop Fulton Sheen. To associate popular apologetics (Catholic or otherwise) with the theological works of such eminent theologians as Thomas Aquinas, is really quite absurd.

We can see your point here and all apologetics is in some sense a matter of reaching the common people; but when was the last time a Catholic stood outside a Protestant church handing out apologetic tracks that disagree with the Protestant theology. Now reverse that and ask yourself if Protestants don't practice this form of sheep stealing a lot more than Catholics. Your story above about Central and South America and Catholic Apologetics is a prime example. Protestant missionaries travel from the U.S., where less than half the people identify as Christian to Catholic countries where nearly everyone identifies as Christian and "evangelize" people out of the Catholic church. Apologetics should be a defense of one's beliefs, not an offensive act of changing someone's denomination. I find the Catholic apologists on here to be more about defense than offense. I am sure you can think of exceptions; but most threads here devolve into Catholic Bashers and Catholic Apologists bandying some Catholic distinctive. I think in another page or two someone will see that we are having a cordial discourse on apologetics and jump in and change this into the fifteen hundredth thread on Peter and the Keys.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We can see your point here and all apologetics is in some sense a matter of reaching the common people; but when was the last time a Catholic stood outside a Protestant church handing out apologetic tracks that disagree with the Protestant theology. Now reverse that and ask yourself if Protestants don't practice this form of sheep stealing a lot more than Catholics. Your story above about Central and South America and Catholic Apologetics is a prime example. Protestant missionaries travel from the U.S., where less than half the people identify as Christian to Catholic countries where nearly everyone identifies as Christian and "evangelize" people out of the Catholic church. Apologetics should be a defense of one's beliefs, not an offensive act of changing someone's denomination. I find the Catholic apologists on here to be more about defense than offense. I am sure you can think of exceptions; but most threads here devolve into Catholic Bashers and Catholic Apologists bandying some Catholic distinctive. I think in another page or two someone will see that we are having a cordial discourse on apologetics and jump in and change this into the fifteen hundredth thread on Peter and the Keys.

Actually, if you would kindly calm down, I have not bashed any Catholic apologist on this thread. I merely got things stirred up by saying that Mr. Ray is an excellent apologist, but not so much of a theologian.

One of the strangest experiences in my life was visiting a Catholic Church in Vincennes, Indiana. In the front vestibule there were two prominent racks of literature. One was filled with various Catholic topics - the mysteries of the Rosary, etc. The other, and I kid you not, was filled with tracts published by the infamous Jack Chick.

 

[tz620q]

Actually, if you would kindly calm down, I have not bashed any Catholic apologist on this thread. I merely got things stirred up by saying that Mr. Ray is an excellent apologist, but not so much of a theologian.

One of the strangest experiences in my life was visiting a Catholic Church in Vincennes, Indiana. In the front vestibule there were two prominent racks of literature. One was filled with various Catholic topics - the mysteries of the Rosary, etc. The other, and I kid you not, was filled with tracts published by the infamous Jack Chick.

I am sorry if I came across as being overwrought before. I did not think you were bashing Steve Ray. I was really trying to show what I have seen about the difference in Catholic Apologetics versus Protestant Apologetics. The Catholic tracts you saw were probably in defense of Catholic doctrine. Jack Chick is an extreme example; but does show that a lot of Protestant Apologetics are not so much about defending a set of beliefs but attacking someone elses. Maybe this goes back to the Wood Cuts of Luther and the original propaganda tactics of the Reformation. The Catholic Church of that time was on the defensive and maybe we are still in that mode. What are your thoughts?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am sorry if I came across as being overwrought before. I did not think you were bashing Steve Ray. I was really trying to show what I have seen about the difference in Catholic Apologetics versus Protestant Apologetics. The Catholic tracts you saw were probably in defense of Catholic doctrine. Jack Chick is an extreme example; but does show that a lot of Protestant Apologetics are not so much about defending a set of beliefs but attacking someone elses. Maybe this goes back to the Wood Cuts of Luther and the original propaganda tactics of the Reformation. The Catholic Church of that time was on the defensive and maybe we are still in that mode. What are your thoughts?

Actually, the Catholic tracts seemed to be primarily addressed to parishioners as a means of education. Most outsiders would be puzzled by something like "The Seven Mysteries of the Rosary".

I agree that apologetics frequently end up on the offensive side of things and thus results in uncalled-for and ignorant attacks.

The Catholic Church was definitely on the defensive during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, hence the developed of the Office of Propaganda, the Council of Trent, and the Counter Reformation. Protestant efforts ranged from wanton destruction to utter pacifism with everything in between. Unfortunately, we hear the most about the destructive folks and little to nothing about the passive folks such as the Moravians.