Peter, the Rock, the Keys, and the Chair

[Tradidi]

There is a talk by Catholic convert Steve Ray that explains very well what Catholics believe about the Church, and why they believe it.

I was going to transcribe this talk and condense it into a small article, but the material Steve covers is just too much to squeeze into the limits of this forum's software and nothing I write down could bring the points across as well as Steve does. Besides, it is a lot easier to sit back and listen to someone talk than it is to read a long article.

I would like to know what Protestants have to say about the arguments Steve brings up.

I realise not everyone has the time, the interest or the honesty to listen to a Catholic. But those who do, please listen and post your comments below.

Those who do not have the time, or the interest of the honesty to listen to this talk, please do not reply, do not vent your anger and frustration and do not scoff at what you do not understand.

Here is the talk:

Peter, the Rock, the Keys, and the Chair

God bless,

Tradidi

 

[thecolorsblend]

Saved you a click.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There is a talk by Catholic convert Steve Ray that explains very well what Catholics believe about the Church, and why they believe it.

Here is the talk:

Peter, the Rock, the Keys, and the Chair

Note that Steve Ray was Protestant before becoming Catholic. If you really do not want to enter onto that path you should avoid listening to this talk. Fair warning.

 

[Tradidi]

Note that Steve Ray was Protestant before becoming Catholic. If you really do not want to enter onto that path you should avoid listening to this talk. Fair warning.

That's like the Jews saying: notice that St. Paul used to be a Jew before becoming a Christian. If you do not want to enter onto that path you should avoid listening to him.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's like the Jews saying: notice that St. Paul used to be a Jew before becoming a Christian. If you do not want to enter onto that path you should avoid listening to him.

It is like that.

But we know Paul remained faithful to his faith in God by accepting Jesus Christ. In the same way you and I know that Steve Ray remained faithful to Jesus Christ by becoming Catholic.

There are many people who really do not want to become Catholic. They hate anything Catholic. They would not be able to handle one of theirs who is now Catholic and has a good basis for becoming Catholic. If they looked at Steve Ray's article they might have some distress or they might even find themselves influenced by Ray. Their relatives might not be too happy with them if they let it be known that they considered the arguments of a Catholic. It might be unsettling. They might not be able to unsee what they saw. I just gave a warning.

Some of them might even decide to be Bereans, seeing if what Ray says is true or not. Most won't want to do that though. It is for them, the ones who do not want to act like Bereans, but to avoid the challenge, that I provided the warning.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is like that.

But we know Paul remained faithful to his faith in God by accepting Jesus Christ. In the same way you and I know that Steve Ray remained faithful to Jesus Christ by becoming Catholic.

There are many people who really do not want to become Catholic. They hate anything Catholic. They would not be able to handle one of theirs who is now Catholic and has a good basis for becoming Catholic. If they looked at Steve Ray's article they might have some distress or they might even find themselves influenced by Ray. Their relatives might not be too happy with them if they let it be known that they considered the arguments of a Catholic. It might be unsettling. They might not be able to unsee what they saw. I just gave a warning.

Some of them might even decide to be Bereans, seeing if what Ray says is true or not. Most won't want to do that though. It is for them, the ones who do not want to act like Bereans, but to avoid the challenge, that I provided the warning.

Then there are loads of folks just like myself who know enough about Catholicism to understand that behind the public image lies some really nasty stuff.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Then there are loads of folks just like myself who know enough about Catholicism to understand that behind the public image lies some really nasty stuff.

Let's see. You are 'nondenominational'. Where do the nondenominational nasty folks hide their nasty stuff? Or is it so well hidden from you that you don't even know it exists?

Just say'n.

We have had sordid Catholics from the time of Judas. Yes, we own that one too. A betrayer of Jesus. One of the typical 8% of really bad Catholics. It's no surprise that we have them. But we have profound truths as well. And one of those is about Peter the rock and the keys given to him and his chair of authority. If you don't like that you can always bring up bad things Catholics have done. But you better know that you have your own bad things if you dare to look. And don't believe the folks who say there is, of course, no dirt. I will apologize in advance for any sadness this brings you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Let's see. You are 'nondenominational'. Where do the nondenominational nasty folks hide their nasty stuff? Or is it so well hidden from you that you don't even know it exists?

Just say'n.

We have had sordid Catholics from the time of Judas. Yes, we own that one too. A betrayer of Jesus. One of the typical 8% of really bad Catholics. It's no surprise that we have them. But we have profound truths as well. And one of those is about Peter the rock and the keys given to him and his chair of authority. If you don't like that you can always bring up bad things Catholics have done. But you better know that you have your own bad things if you dare to look. And don't believe the folks who say there is, of course, no dirt. I will apologize in advance for any sadness this brings you.

Strangely enough, I was not non-denominational all of my life. in fact, i was not Christian for a fair chunk of it. Growing up in an extremely Catholic city permits one to observe both the glory and the shame of the Catholic religion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Strangely enough, I was not non-denominational all of my life. in fact, i was not Christian for a fair chunk of it. Growing up in an extremely Catholic city permits one to observe both the glory and the shame of the Catholic religion.

So you belong to a group with no shame? Is that what you are saying? Or you just haven't found out about the shame of your chosen group yet? Because if you dig you will find it.

One can always find something. If not, you didn't look hard enough. Not that I want to defame your chosen group. It's just that they have skeletons in the closet too, perhaps a lot of them.

So you deciding to complain about the Catholics, well maybe you should concentrate on your own group's failings. See, I know abundantly well the Catholic failings. But then it comes to what the Scriptures say and I see how the Catholics got some things right too. I can't ignore that. And you shouldn't just write it off when Scripture shows us about Peter the rock and the keys and the chair. That's what this thread is about. Reject it or accept it but at least give it a fair shot. Don't complain about bad Catholics when for the brief time of nondenominationalism you have more than enough of your own bad folks, whether they tell you about them or not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you belong to a group with no shame? Is that what you are saying? Or you just haven't found out about the shame of your chosen group yet? Because if you dig you will find it.

One can always find something. If not, you didn't look hard enough. Not that I want to defame your chosen group. It's just that they have skeletons in the closet too, perhaps a lot of them.

So you deciding to complain about the Catholics, well maybe you should concentrate on your own group's failings. See, I know abundantly well the Catholic failings. But then it comes to what the Scriptures say and I see how the Catholics got some things right too. I can't ignore that. And you shouldn't just write it off when Scripture shows us about Peter the rock and the keys and the chair. That's what this thread is about. Reject it or accept it but at least give it a fair shot. Don't complain about bad Catholics when for the brief time of nondenominationalism you have more than enough of your own bad folks, whether they tell you about them or not.

One of the difficulties with a denominational mindset such as you have is that you believe that my identity is found in my group. It is not. It is found in Jesus Christ and in Him alone and yes, He is without shame. The fact that many who have claimed to be His followers have chosen their identity not in Him, but in some religious organization, results, inevitably in shameful acts by that organization simply because all such organizations are composed of humans who are, by nature, sinners.

In order to be a member here are CF I am required to affiliate myself with one of a multitude of groups. Because the majority of such groups (denominations, if you will) reject myself as well as other such organizations, is of no real concern to me. I do not claim to affiliate with any of these and thus have ended up in the grab bag known as non-denominationalism. I cannot speak for other folks in this grab bag, nor do I expect to be held accountable for their misdeeds and misbeliefs. I have enough of my own to be concerned about.

I am not complaining about Catholics in particular. All denominations have both glory and shame and if their members choose to turn a blind eye to their shame, then that is their choice. It does not mean that the shame does not exist, but merely that individuals such as yourself are either ignorant of it or are unwilling to admit its existence.

 

[chevyontheriver]

One of the difficulties with a denominational mindset such as you have is that you believe that my identity is found in my group. It is not. It is found in Jesus Christ and in Him alone and yes, He is without shame. The fact that many who have claimed to be His followers have chosen their identity not in Him, but in some religious organization, results, inevitably in shameful acts by that organization simply because all such organizations are composed of humans who are, by nature, sinners.

In order to be a member here are CF I am required to affiliate myself with one of a multitude of groups. Because the majority of such groups (denominations, if you will) reject myself as well as other such organizations, is of no real concern to me. I do not claim to affiliate with any of these and thus have ended up in the grab bag known as non-denominationalism. I cannot speak for other folks in this grab bag, nor do I expect to be held accountable for their misdeeds and misbeliefs. I have enough of my own to be concerned about.

I am not complaining about Catholics in particular. All denominations have both glory and shame and if their members choose to turn a blind eye to their shame, then that is their choice. It does not mean that the shame does not exist, but merely that individuals such as yourself are either ignorant of it or are unwilling to admit its existence.

You have gone the holier than thou route and in the process told me I am ignorant or unwilling to see the troubles of the Catholic Church. If you only knew me better. You have also disavowed your nondenominational denomination, which is a denomination for those who wish to disavow denominations. That's fine, but it sets you up as a solo Christian. I can't be a solo Christian, so I have to associate with the Church even though it has Judas as one of it's earliest members. You can hold me accountable for Judas if you like, or maybe you want to hold Jesus accountable for Judas. Whatever. You didn't do a thing to wrestle with the content of the OP. You just sidestepped it. Do you have anything to say about the OP and the article it linked to? Or is saying there have been bad Catholics sufficient?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You have gone the holier than thou route and in the process told me I am ignorant or unwilling to see the troubles of the Catholic Church. If you only knew me better. You have also disavowed your nondenominational denomination, which is a denomination for those who wish to disavow denominations. That's fine, but it sets you up as a solo Christian. I can't be a solo Christian, so I have to associate with the Church even though it has Judas as one of it's earliest members. You can hold me accountable for Judas if you like, or maybe you want to hold Jesus accountable for Judas. Whatever. You didn't do a thing to wrestle with the content of the OP. You just sidestepped it. Do you have anything to say about the OP and the article it linked to? Or is saying there have been bad Catholics sufficient?

My, my, my. Aren't we judgmental? I have said that what your denomination and its members such as yourself believe and do are really none of my concern.

The fact remains, as I stated in my first post, that your denomination is repackaging its propaganda (a word which was invented by your denomination) to appeal to evangelical Protestants. Whether or not they buy into it is also none of my concern. As for myself, I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day. (II Timothy 1:12)

 

[chevyontheriver]

My, my, my. Aren't we judgmental? I have said that what your denomination and its members such as yourself believe and do are really none of my concern.

You were judgmental, of me, telling me essentially that I was blind. It seemed your concern to tell me so. That you were better than me because you don't belong to any denomination or group. You could look down your nose at me. So at least one of us is judgmental and a mirror could be useful for you.

The fact remains, as I stated in my first post, that your denomination is repackaging its propaganda (a word which was invented by your denomination) to appeal to evangelical Protestants. Whether or not they buy into it is also none of my concern. As for myself, I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day. (II Timothy 1:12)

So you comment here but you don't really have the time of day for what the thread was actually about? You are content to be unmoved by Catholic 'propaganda', somehow knowing it has to be wrong and you are right. And you not corrupted because you are a solo Christian. Right?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You were judgmental, of me, telling me essentially that I was blind. It seemed your concern to tell me so. That you were better than me because you don't belong to any denomination or group. You could look down your nose at me. So at least one of us is judgmental and a mirror could be useful for you.

So you comment here but you don't really have the time of day for what the thread was actually about? You are content to be unmoved by Catholic 'propaganda', somehow knowing it has to be wrong and you are right. And you not corrupted because you are a solo Christian. Right?

I apologize for any misunderstanding on either of our parts and for the offense I caused you.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I apologize for any misunderstanding on either of our parts and for the offense I caused you.

There is nasty stuff in all of us, not just in the few who are the worst of us. In me too. I accept your apology and would hope that some sort of reconciliation is possible.

Nastiness is part of the fallen condition of mankind, and that you and I are fallen and go nasty too. Our pastors have the same weaknesses.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is nasty stuff in all of us, not just in the few who are the worst of us. In me too. I accept your apology and would hope that some sort of reconciliation is possible.

Nastiness is part of the fallen condition of mankind, and that you and I are fallen and go nasty too. Our pastors have the same weaknesses.

Sad, but quite true. Thank you for accepting my apology.

 

[Marilyn C]

There is a talk by Catholic convert Steve Ray that explains very well what Catholics believe about the Church, and why they believe it.
Here is the talk:

Peter, the Rock, the Keys, and the Chair

God bless,

Tradidi

Hi Tradidi,

I listened to some of the talk. Here are my thoughts as there are serious errors leading to heresy in that talk.

Peter did not have a revelation of the Body of Christ and tried to get the Gentiles to act like Jews. Paul had to correct him. (Gal. 2: 11 - 14)

Peter and the other disciples/apostles will be 12 ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem. (matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14). The Body of Christ has a higher calling to the third heaven with Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Lost4words]

A great theologian is Steve Ray. Extremely knowledgeable and well read.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A great theologian is Steve Ray. Extremely knowledgeable and well read.

As an apologist for the Catholic Church he is outstanding, but a theologian he is not.

 

[tz620q]

As an apologist for the Catholic Church he is outstanding, but a theologian he is not.

Fair enough. Certainly not in any academic way. Still I like him. His tract on the setting for Matthew 16 was great and I find is one that even non-Catholic's appreciate.