Peter the Rock and his keys

[RedTulipMom]

I have a serious question of all of you. There is scripture in the NT where Jesus gave Peter the keys and calls him the Rock. If Peter is the head of the church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church, then how does the church prevail without Peter's chair?
This is very bothersome to me.

 

[Nichole]

Hummmm.....................what is Peter's chair?

 

[RedTulipMom]

Hummmm.....................what is Peter's chair?

The chair of the Bishop of Rome

 

[Vasileios]

According to most Fathers, the Rock is Peter's profession of faith, that Christ is the Messiah.

 

[Philothei]

You can also go here :

to find out information....

http://christianforums.com/t76096-the-keys.html


and this article:

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html


Hope the second link works ... I think I messed it up somehow.... not good with comp....

God bless,
Philothei

 

[Breaking Babylon]

We believe that the strong faith which St. Peter showed is the rock on which the Church is built, not St. Peter himself. Saintly and righteous before God as he is, there is still no 'Vicar' of Christ.

Christ is baptized!

 

[Rowan]

FYI, Peter is venerated as the elder brother of the Apostles in Orthodoxy, but even he made lapses in judgment about how the church should be run, i.e. that dispute over circumcision between Sts. Peter & Paul. Luckily, they reconciled

None of the historical patriarchates had a spotless record (still don't), but Christ has kept His promise (and how could He ever not?).

The Head of the Church is Christ Himself. The Church prevails through the power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of God the Father.

Holy Apostle Peter prays for our souls.

 

[Philothei]

All saints pray for our souls.....There is no greater than Chsit himself. Christ talked about all Apostles.... Also the Rock ... is Christ himself.... He is our Rock as no human can replace Christ... in this world or the other.... Christ is the Highest Vicar of God He does not have "representatives" as He does not need to have any. He reins over His Church.

The article by Webster is very long and rich in information... I pray it will answer most of your questions. ....

Happy Epiphany to all for tomorrow and to our RC brothers and sisters... (I saw many, many people going to mass tonight...)


God bless,
Philothei

 

[RedTulipMom]

You can also go here :

to find out information....

http://christianforums.com/t76096-the-keys.html


and this article:

http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html


Hope the second link works ... I think I messed it up somehow.... not good with comp....

God bless,
Philothei

Thanks for the links. There are over 180 posts in that thread and believe it or not..i just read them ALL! And now its past my bedtime! I havent gotten to your second link yet, tomorrow if i have time!
I have many more questions that have popped into my brain and will be posting another thread for ya'll tomorrow! lol

 

[Philothei]

Have a good rest Red... I know that thread was a ...killer.... lol...

keep the questions coming ...

Have a blessed day tomorrow.

Philothei

 

[buzuxi02]

The chair of the Bishop of Rome

Hmm, Unusual concept. What gives you the idea that Rome is the chair of St Peter? Why do you even think there is such a thing as a chair of St Peter? And would this concept tie in with a belief in the preexistence of souls and reincarnation?

 

[Prawnik]

Be very careful not to read the verse exactly as it it written and not to inject our preconceptions into it.

 

[RedTulipMom]

Hmm, Unusual concept. What gives you the idea that Rome is the chair of St Peter? Why do you even think there is such a thing as a chair of St Peter? And would this concept tie in with a belief in the preexistence of souls and reincarnation?

I didn't think it was an unusual concept. Most Catholics and Orthodox are very aware of it. It has nothing to do with re-incarnation. It has to do with the laying on of hands and Apostolic succession.

 

[Prawnik]

Interesting, as Christ did not say any of that.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

According to most Fathers, the Rock is Peter's profession of faith, that Christ is the Messiah.

But according to some prominent Fathers it is also St Peter himself and such a statement has never been condemned by the Church. It is also interesting to note that St Peter is referred to by the the Church as "the Foremost".

I think the question of St Peter's leadership or being the Rock is a very interesting thread, but has very little to do with the position of the Bishop of Rome within the structure of the Church. There is no need to defend or contest anything about St Peter in order to defend or contest anything regarding the priorities of the Roman Patriarchate.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

When I was in Romania I visited a Church in Suceava that, like most Orthodox CHurches there, had the walls covered in iconography. On one of the walls was St Peter holding the keys. No other Apostle held them.

Now, obviously all of the Apostles received them afterward, but I say this only to point out that the Church did see something special in St Peter. We cannot act as if it is not something Special that unlike all of the other disciples, St Peter received the keys from Christ separately, most likely first, and by himself (at that moment). no, that does not mean he ONLY holds the keys, but the facts mentioned above probably gives light on why very old ORTHODOX icons picture St Peter with the keys... and this is not common with the other Apostles (actually I haven't seen it at all, but that doesn't mean anything). Below is an icon of "the Foremost" of the Apostles from St Catherine's Monastery that many here have probably seen before. Notice what he holds in his hands.

Again, this says nothing at all about the responsibilities of the Bishop of Rome. I do think, perhaps, it says a lot about the mission that ALL bishops have inherited from the example of St Peter. The Petrine ministry is not guarded to one man any more than another. The Bishop of detroit is equally guarded with feeding Christ's sheep as is the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Xpy

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Hmm, Unusual concept. What gives you the idea that Rome is the chair of St Peter? Why do you even think there is such a thing as a chair of St Peter? And would this concept tie in with a belief in the preexistence of souls and reincarnation?

While I do think this is a good question, it should be noted that the title is quite ancient. I would be interesting to see the the earliest incidents of this title being attributed to Rome... I think it can easily be found as early as the 300s and even earlier, but I could be wrong.

I still think it's a separate issue. But it would be a good thing for all of us to educate ourselves on.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Above is from a Bulgarian Orthodox Church... link: http://www.bnr.bg/RadioBulgaria/Emission_English/Theme_History_And_Religion/Material/StPetersday.htm​

And below is an icon of St Peter and Spouse, St Peter again with the Keys. From this site which I haven't read at all, but seems to be Orthodox and talks about the "Rock" issue as well as the "keys".

Again, my argument is NOT that St Peter was the only APostle to receive the keys. It would take 2 secs for any of you, regardless of your being Orthodox, Catholic or... Mormon for that matter, to prove that idea wrong for it is clear in the Scriptures that Christ gave the keys to the other Apostles separately.

However, I show this to point out that the ORthodox CHurch unabashedly holds up Peter as the Apostle with the Keys with no fear of this meaning anything at all about Rome. There is no reason for any of us to feel the need to downplay the role or any supposed role of St Peter within the Early Church or what he represented among the Apostles or still represents today. HE should be extoled. We should humbly laud his position of the Foremost of the Apostles and look to him (I dare say) even for a supreme example of leadership among, however sinful and imperfect he was shown to be time and time again. I mean, Christ gave him the keys separately. That means something. Christ told him and him alone explicitly, "Feed My sheep"... three times! That means something. And that doesn't mean that he was the only one entrusted with that. But there is something special about him as far as leadership goes.

I feel like sometimes we downplay the role of Peter precisely because we fear that extolling him too much might give handy fodder to the Catholic concept of Rome. It does... using their logic, which, overly simplified, is Peter=Pope.

But I suggest that that is a very flawed premise and that THAT is what should be rejected by us. No Apostle equals ANY bishop. Apostles were not Bishops and most Bishops were not Apostles (I say that only becuase some were given titles like "equal to the Apostles"). They are connected.. no doubt, but BIshops are not somehow simple continuations of the Apostles. They had a distinct office and calling from the "overseers".
​

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I think I forgot to add the link where I got the icon of St Peter and his Spouse.
http://aggreen.net/peter/st_peter.html
I looked at it a little bit and I really can't tell if it is a Uniate or Orthodox website. However, there are articles from both Orthodox and, it seems, Catholics. At worst, the site is interesting.

So, I can't verify the tradition from whence the icon of St Peter and his Spouse comes from, but I have already shown two other icons of Peter with the keys and I assure you I have seen the one in the Orthodox Church in Romania. My simple point is that such an image of singling out POeter with the keys (as opposed to the other Apostles) in no way strengthens or diminishes the modern Catholic appeal.

 

[RedTulipMom]

Thanks for all your answers everyone.