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Peter the First Pope?
- Thread starter DarkLord
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The pope possese the keys alone.
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
"And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open." Isaisah 22:22
Most Protestants believe that "church" refers to the mass of Christian believers throughout the world, loosely connected to each other by their faith in the Bible alone. But these verses demonstrate that the "Church" Jesus Christ founded is not an invisible body of loosely-connected believers, but a visible and hierarchical institution built upon the person of Peter, who was given supreme authority, an office for dynastic succession, and the gift of infallibility. This Church can only be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In these verses, we see the following. First, Jesus builds His Church (ecclesia) upon the person of Peter. As we learned in the previous link on The Church, Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha."). Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter.
Secondly, Jesus says the powers of death will never prevail against the Church. So even though Jesus appoints sinful human beings such as Peter to lead the Church, Jesus promises that hell will not prevail against her. Because the powers of hell refer to the supernatural, this must mean that the Church, although lead by sinful people, is divinely protected. Because she is so protected, the Church cannot lead the faithful into supernatural error. That is, she is unable to teach error on matters of faith and morals. This inability to teach error on faith and morals is called "infallibility" (it has nothing to do with the sinfulness of the Church's leaders, which deals with "impeccability"). If the Church were not infallible, the powers of death would indeed prevail over her sinful members. The consistent, 2,000 years of the Churchs teaching on faith and morals proves that Jesus has kept His promise.
Third, Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. While many Protestants think that the gift of the "keys" means that Jesus appointed Peter as the guardian of the gates of heaven, the "keys" actually refer to Peter's authority over the earthly Church (which Jesus often described as the "kingdom of heaven." Matthew 13:24-52; 25:1-2; Mark 4:26-32; Luke 9:27; 13:19-20, etc.) In the Old Davidic kingdom, the king had a prime minister on whose shoulder God placed the keys of the kingdom (Isaiah 22:22). Similarly, the new kingdom of Christ also has a prime minister (Peter and his successors) who is given the keys of the kingdom. The keys not only represent the authority the prime minister has to rule over God's people in the king's absence, but also the means of effecting dynastic succession to the prime minister's office (for example, in Isaiah 22:20-22, Eliakim replaces Shebna as prime minister in the Old Davidic kingdom). Only the Catholic Church claims and proves a succession of prime ministers (popes) all the way back to Peter, and this succession is facilitated by the passing of the keys of the kingdom.
Finally, Jesus declares to Peter that whatever he binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. As in the Old Davidic kingdom, whenever Peter the prime minister opens, no one shall shut, and whenever he shuts, no one shall open. Jesus, therefore, gives Peter the authority to make decisions that will be ratified in eternity. In order for sinful Peter (and his successors through the passing on of the "keys") to make such decisions, he must be divinely protected. Once again, this evidences Jesus' gift of infallibility to the Church. Only the Catholic Church claims and has proven that her 2,000 year-old teachings on faith and morals, which have never changed, are infallibly proclaimed.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
If scripture is the word of God, and if you worship God alone, then why does tradition supercede the Bible?So regardless of what I say to you, you cannot accept it.
I have told you several times now that Catholics worship God and God alone.
Yet, YOU, all knowing realize this is false and I worship the Pope.
Peace.
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hsilgne
Frustrated in Hooterville.
Authority over this world through Grace of Jesus Christ yes.
Authority to change Gods instructions and deposit of faith and Truth - no. That's reserved for God.
The Church cannot and has not and will not change it's teachings.
The Dogma of the church has and will remain. The "disciplines" may change, but the Dogma has not and will not - it only gets reaffirmed, usually, in order to counter the heresy of the day.
This is why Jesus established the Apostolic church. To protect the Truth.
Peace.
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hsilgne
Frustrated in Hooterville.
You misunderstand. Tradition does not "supercede" the Word of God.
Tradition and the Word of God work together to reveal the fullness of Truth from God.
Tradition cannot and does not contradict the Word of God and the Word of God cannot and does not contradict Tradition.
It is a "safety net". To protect the Truth. Without this protection, people can and have created their own truth.
Peace.
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Church doctrines have never changed. Once declared infallible, u can never change it.
We gave u the Bible. It was tradition that help the church find whcih books are inspired. Nowhere in the Scripture does it say which books are inspired. There is no list of which books are biblical. While the last apostle John died around 100 A.D., the Bible was not finally compiled until 397 A.D. The Church was thus required to rely upon the oral apostolic tradition during this 300 year period in order to determine which letters were inspired and which letters were not. The tradition they depended on, of course, did not come from the mouths of the apostles (they were deceased), but from their successors. (There is also no reason to conclude that the Church should listen to the fourth, fifth or sixth generation of apostolic successors, but not to later successors such as those of our day).
So tradition is very well needed, unless u find no need of a Bible.
Btw please deal wif my earlier arguments on Peter alone ahving teh keys.
But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.' Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).
We gave u the Bible. It was tradition that help the church find whcih books are inspired. Nowhere in the Scripture does it say which books are inspired. There is no list of which books are biblical. While the last apostle John died around 100 A.D., the Bible was not finally compiled until 397 A.D. The Church was thus required to rely upon the oral apostolic tradition during this 300 year period in order to determine which letters were inspired and which letters were not. The tradition they depended on, of course, did not come from the mouths of the apostles (they were deceased), but from their successors. (There is also no reason to conclude that the Church should listen to the fourth, fifth or sixth generation of apostolic successors, but not to later successors such as those of our day).
So tradition is very well needed, unless u find no need of a Bible.
Btw please deal wif my earlier arguments on Peter alone ahving teh keys.
But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.' Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).
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hsilgne
Frustrated in Hooterville.
There are many misinformed people out there, including Catholics.
The question you should be asking is what does the Catholic Church TEACH?
I can tell you that the Catholic Church teaches that the Bible(collection of books), as we now know it, was put together by the Catholic Church. This fact is unquestionable.
In fact the bible(collection of books), as we know it, is a result of Tradition, not the other way around.
.
It is.
Peace.
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bdarien
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the thing about those who truly have authority is that it is undeniable, they don't have to let people know they have authority because the evidence is obvious.
the power of the scriptures prove their authority and therefore people of faith listen to and obey them.
those men who want the power they don't have are preaching only to the converted because only the converted will accept their opinion as fact.
the power of the scriptures prove their authority and therefore people of faith listen to and obey them.
those men who want the power they don't have are preaching only to the converted because only the converted will accept their opinion as fact.
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The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....
ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:
It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus(Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Do u dispute this? So thank u to tradition...and ohh yes...please dont call Irenaus a liar.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
The apostles put their writings into circulation throughout the church as soon as they were written down. Four times Paul specifically said I am writing this with my own hand making it clear it was from the living apostles and not written 50 or 100 years later. (Gal.6:11; Philemon 1:19; 2 Thess. 3:17; Col. 4:18) All the New Testament books were written between 45-75 A.D excluding only the apostle John’s writings that were written in 85-95 A.D. To protect the writings from being lost they were copied for distribution. Schools of Scribes (scholia) copied the Scripture each by hand, also lecture rooms were created where people would copy down what they heard. What manuscript language were they in? Koine, the common Greek language spoken by the people! The bible was not written only for the aristocrat or royalty or the highly educated, but for everyday people.
No council was necessary to affirm what was already true. No book became canonical by the action of a church council. In the same way the Old Testament books were not decided upon by the Sanhedrin. The church only recognized the books that God had inspired because of the revealed record they already had and the eyewitnesses that were still alive.
Some point to hundreds of years later to show that it was then the Bible was put together. When the council of Carthage convened in 397 A.D. they were only putting their approval on the canon that were already received and read for more 200 years prior by the Eastern Church (and some of the western churches). It then became a fixed canon for the western church. What the council did was to determine which books did not meet the tests for canonicity besides the already accepted books. This was necessary as there were many forgeries and false letters circulating.
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There were hundreds of books and at least 20 Gospels...like the Gospel of Peter and Gospel of Thomas who are incidentally apostles. No one knows the real author of the gospels, we base in on traditions that Matthew wrote it etc etc
"In his [Origen] first book on Matthew's Gospel, maintaining the Canon of the Church, he testifies that he knows only four Gospels, writing as follows: Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism, and published in the Hebrew language. The second is by Mark, who composed it according to the instructions of Peter, who in his Catholic epistle acknowledges him as a son, saying, 'The church that is at Babylon elected together with you, saluteth you, and so doth Marcus, my son.' And the third by Luke, the Gospel commended by Paul, and composed for Gentile converts. Last of all that by John." Origen, Commentary on Matthew, fragment in Eusebius Church History, 6:25,3 (A.D. 244).
The reason why u feel/know the Gospel of Luke and not Gospel of Peter is inspired is because the church in 180AD under St Irenaus decided which gospel was inspired. We burnt the rest.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
No council was necessary to affirm what was already true. No book became canonical by the action of a church council. In the same way the Old Testament books were not decided upon by the Sanhedrin. The church only recognized the books that God had inspired because of the revealed record they already had and the eyewitnesses that were still alive.
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DArceri
Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.
"Outside the Church nobody will be saved. (Extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur)" [SIZE=-1](Origen, In Jesu Nave hom. 3,5) [/SIZE]
Cyprian, another third century Church Father, wrote something similar:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation." (Salus extra ecclesiam non est)" [SIZE=-1](Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 73, To Iubaianus, n.21, Migne: Patrologiae Cursus completus. Series prima Latina, Parisiis; 1844) [/SIZE]
The fourth Lateran Council declared, in 1215, that:
"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved . . ." [SIZE=-1](Lateran IV, The Catholic Faith, Chap. 1; Denzinger 430) [/SIZE]
In 1302, Pope Boniface VIII promulgated the Bull Unam Sanctam, wherein these defining words might be found:
Now there's a definition of a dogma if ever I saw one. Here is another:
Now let us turn our attention to the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which informs catechumins that:
"With faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin . . . Furthermore, we declare, say, define and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." [SIZE=-1](Denzinger 468-69) [/SIZE]
Now there's a definition of a dogma if ever I saw one. Here is another:
"It (Roman Church) firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." [SIZE=-1](Council of Florence (1441), Pope Eugenius, Decree for the Jacobites, in the Bull Cantata Domino; Denzinger 714)[/SIZE]
Can there be any doubt that it is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, defined by two ecumenical councils and confirmed by two reigning popes, that salvation is not possible outside the RCC?Now let us turn our attention to the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which informs catechumins that:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation."
846. "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. . .
847. "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. " [SIZE=-1](Catechism of the Catholic Church, Doubleday:New York, © 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc. - Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 244 w/Imprimi Potest of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) [/SIZE]
O my! Looks as though the RCC has done a bit of clarification here. And it would appear that this clarification has so modified the dogma as pronounced by Boniface VIII and Eugenius as to now make it possible that people who have never even heard of Jesus Christ or the Roman Catholic Church might be saved.
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jckstraw72
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you're saying the books were canonical before there was a canon? sure the council decreed what the Church had already been doing, no one's denying that. but its just a fact the canon of the Bible came from the Church's Liturgies and officially from a council.
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My dear gal, vatican 2 merely gave definitions on ecunemism which are not infallible. The infallible doctrine that there is no salvation outside the CC remains inteact. Prots are saved cos u guys are spiritually in communion wif us. As for non-christians, it is impossible for them to suffer in hell for nothing they have done wrong. Those who reject the gospel or baptism cannot be saved. Thats wad pope has been saying.
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U have still ignored my arguments which are related to this thread. Wad do u have sae abt Peter and the keys. I gave a nice article on it in my earlir post.
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