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Peter the First Pope?

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hsilgne

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QUESTION FOR CATHOLICS....Jesus states to ask in His name. Why would you circumvent that...It shows a lack of faith on your part. I personally have developed a deep and personal relationship with Him. I don't have to ask a "saint" to talk on my behalf (or a priest).

Have you ever been with someone you know is righteous? Someone like say, Billy Graham? If you have someone in your life that has that aura about them, perhaps a pastor, have you ever asked someone like that for their prayers? You ask them earnestly with a sincere heart that you would appreciate their prayers to help you through a situation?
I have been, and I feel the power of their prayers when they pray for me. We are encouraged to pray for each other. When we do, that pleases God.
Mary and the Saints are alive. They are praying for us and worshiping with us. I don't have to ask a Saint to talk on my behalf either, or a priest, or Billy Graham - but why wouldn't I?

I don't feel I'm circumventing anything. I am pleasing God.

Peace.
 
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DArceri

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Have you ever been with someone you know is righteous? Someone like say, Billy Graham? If you have someone in your life that has that aura about them, perhaps a pastor, have you ever asked someone like that for their prayers? You ask them earnestly with a sincere heart that you would appreciate their prayers to help you through a situation?
I have been, and I feel the power of their prayers when they pray for me. We are encouraged to pray for each other. When we do, that pleases God.
Mary and the Saints are alive. They are praying for us and worshiping with us. And that pleases God.

I don't feel I'm circumventing anything. I am pleasing God.

Peace.
Prayer is huge in my life. We all ask everyone to pray for us. The point you are missing is this, I personally will go to Jesus Christ, Lord and SAVIOR, for forgiveness of my sins. Catholics need to be forgiven by a priest. Also, they feel they won't be heard unless the intercessor speaks for him.... Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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DarkLord

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Prayer is huge in my life. We all ask everyone to pray for us. The point you are missing is this, I personally will go to Jesus Christ, Lord and SAVIOR, for forgiveness of my sins. Catholics need to be forgiven by a priest. Also, they feel they won't be heard unless the intercessor speaks for him.... Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Im glad we understand each other on the prayer bit. Mary and the Saints are righteous and intercede our prayers. As how u ask ur mum (who has sins) to pray fer u...can u imagine how much more powerful the prayer of the righteous is (saints and mary).

On the forgiveness bit...its pretty simple. I acknowledge the difference in our position, i will not argue. Just give me the oppoutunity to show u the catholic pt of view.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:21-23

Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgive and retain sins? Because, Jesus believed that Christians could best grow in holiness by confessing their sins to His priests and receiving absolution in the sacrament of confession. Confession is thus the normative way in which God forgives us our sins.

First, we see that Jesus breathes on His apostles in the upper room. The only other time God breathed on man was when He created him and breathed life into his body. Genesis 2:7. When God breathes on man, a transformation takes place. Here, the apostles were transformed into "other Christs," filled with the Holy Spirit and endowed with Jesus' divine authority to forgive sins. Thus, Matthew writes that God gave the authority to forgive sins “to men.” Matt. 9:8. We also note that Jesus makes no distinction between very serious sin (called "mortal sin") and lesser sins (called "venial sin"). See 1 John 5:16-17. By virtue of God's mercy, the apostles are able to forgive all sins.

We also note that the apostles were not only given the authority to forgive sin, but to retain sin as well. What does this mean? This means that the apostles were given the gift of rendering judgment on the sincerity of the penitent, and binding the penitent to works of penance in order for him to be forgiven of his sin. If, in the apostles' judgment, the penitent was not sincere, or should be required to perform acts of penance in reparation for his sins, the apostles could retain the sin (withhold forgiveness) until their conditions were satisfied. While such authority is reserved to God alone, Christ shared this authority with the apostles.

The power to retain sin is extremely important because it gives priests the authority, not only to forgive sin, but to remove the temporal punishments due to sin (the Church calls the removal of temporal punishments due to sin already forgiven an "indulgence"). Certainly, if a priest can forgive a mortal sin (which, if unforgiven, would have sent the person to hell), the priest can certainly remove the temporal punishments due to venial sin. This is part of the priests' binding authority (retaining sin and imposing penance) and loosing authority (forgiving sin and removing punishment due to sin).

Of course, Jesus' gift of authority described in John 20:22-23 only makes sense if the penitent orally confesses the sins to the apostles. The apostles were not given the gift of mind reading, and, even if they were, forgiveness of sin would still depend on the sinner's desire to be forgiven (the sinner would express that desire by confessing his sins to the priest). If oral confession were not required, the way that Jesus granted the gift to the apostles would not make any sense.
 
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DArceri

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Im glad we understand each other on the prayer bit. Mary and the Saints are righteous and intercede our prayers. As how u ask ur mum (who has sins) to pray fer u...can u imagine how much more powerful the prayer of the righteous is (saints and mary).

On the forgiveness bit...its pretty simple. I acknowledge the difference in our position, i will not argue. Just give me the oppoutunity to show u the catholic pt of view.

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:21-23

Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgive and retain sins? Because, Jesus believed that Christians could best grow in holiness by confessing their sins to His priests and receiving absolution in the sacrament of confession. Confession is thus the normative way in which God forgives us our sins.

First, we see that Jesus breathes on His apostles in the upper room. The only other time God breathed on man was when He created him and breathed life into his body. Genesis 2:7. When God breathes on man, a transformation takes place. Here, the apostles were transformed into "other Christs," filled with the Holy Spirit and endowed with Jesus' divine authority to forgive sins. Thus, Matthew writes that God gave the authority to forgive sins “to men.” Matt. 9:8. We also note that Jesus makes no distinction between very serious sin (called "mortal sin") and lesser sins (called "venial sin"). See 1 John 5:16-17. By virtue of God's mercy, the apostles are able to forgive all sins.

We also note that the apostles were not only given the authority to forgive sin, but to retain sin as well. What does this mean? This means that the apostles were given the gift of rendering judgment on the sincerity of the penitent, and binding the penitent to works of penance in order for him to be forgiven of his sin. If, in the apostles' judgment, the penitent was not sincere, or should be required to perform acts of penance in reparation for his sins, the apostles could retain the sin (withhold forgiveness) until their conditions were satisfied. While such authority is reserved to God alone, Christ shared this authority with the apostles.

The power to retain sin is extremely important because it gives priests the authority, not only to forgive sin, but to remove the temporal punishments due to sin (the Church calls the removal of temporal punishments due to sin already forgiven an "indulgence"). Certainly, if a priest can forgive a mortal sin (which, if unforgiven, would have sent the person to hell), the priest can certainly remove the temporal punishments due to venial sin. This is part of the priests' binding authority (retaining sin and imposing penance) and loosing authority (forgiving sin and removing punishment due to sin).

Of course, Jesus' gift of authority described in John 20:22-23 only makes sense if the penitent orally confesses the sins to the apostles. The apostles were not given the gift of mind reading, and, even if they were, forgiveness of sin would still depend on the sinner's desire to be forgiven (the sinner would express that desire by confessing his sins to the priest). If oral confession were not required, the way that Jesus granted the gift to the apostles would not make any sense.
I am not agreeing with you one bit...I don't ask Mary to help me get to God. I may ask a friend to pray for me ALSO, but I am the one who has the one-on-one personal relationship with Jesus. Not the friend, not Mary, not a priest, not the Pope. The Holy Spirit is in me, ie. God is in me, He is in my heart, I don't need anyone to help me "get" to Him.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I am not agreeing with you one bit...I don't ask Mary to help me get to God. I may ask a friend to pray for me ALSO, but I am the one who has the one on one personal relationship with Jesus. Not the friend, not Mary, not a priest, not the Pope.


I'm not sure how ANYTHING related to Mary proves that Peter was the first POPE.


:scratch:
 
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DArceri

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We drifted off topic. Why do u ask ur fren to pray fer u?

Its okay to get a fren to pray fer u, but not the Mother of God and the Saints?

To josiah: when did the first church die?
When I ask spiritually, I go to Jesus.
 
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hsilgne

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Prayer is huge in my life. We all ask everyone to pray for us. The point you are missing is this, I personally will go to Jesus Christ, Lord and SAVIOR, for forgiveness of my sins. Catholics need to be forgiven by a priest. Also, they feel they won't be heard unless the intercessor speaks for him.... Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

OK. You are wrong.

God hears all of our prayers -correct?. God also wants us to pray together - agree?. And as you said, "we all ask evryone to pray for us". Why? Because it works! God likes that and He blesses us for that.

Now the first thing you must understand is that Catholics worship and pray to God alone. So, like you, I go to JESUS CHRIST LORD AND SAVIOUR for forgiveness of my sins too.

Catholics, like Protestants pray for each other.(We do this alot). As we should.

Now the question becomes, are the Saints in heaven as we speak? are they alive? The Catholic church believes they are. How much more powerful are the prayers of ther Saints, living in Gods presence?

So since we know the Saints are alive and praying for us, it is only logical to join them and ask for their prayers or in other words, their "ïntercession".

As for the priest thing, Catholics do not believe it is the priest forgiving us, it is Christ and Christ alone. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is an awesome GIFT, instituted by God. He wants us to have and "use"(bad word) this precsious gift. Personally, my most profound encounters with Christ have occured while partaking in this Sacrament. It is awseome!.

Peace.
 
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DArceri

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We drifted off topic. Why do u ask ur fren to pray fer u?

Its okay to get a fren to pray fer u, but not the Mother of God and the Saints?

To josiah: when did the first church die?
We got off topic a bit...But it is because Peter is believed to be the reason for all Christian authority given to the CC. and only they cantell you who is a saint and how to pray.
 
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DarkLord

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We got off topic a bit...But it is because Peter is believed to be the reason for all Christian authority given to the CC. and only they cantell you who is a saint and how to pray.
Explain to me ur logic. My fren can pray fer me but not the Mother of God and the saints in heavens as mentoned in reveltaions.

Peter alone possese the keys to the church. He has authority ALONE. Peter alone is told to feed the sheeps....giving them doctrines and stuff. U should listen to Peter and his successors.
 
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DArceri

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OK. You are wrong.

God hears all of our prayers -correct?. God also wants us to pray together - agree?. And as you said, "we all ask evryone to pray for us". Why? Because it works! God likes that and He blesses us for that.

Now the first thing you must understand is that Catholics worship and pray to God alone. So, like you, I go to JESUS CHRIST LORD AND SAVIOUR for forgiveness of my sins too.

Catholics, like Protestants pray for each other.(We do this alot). As we should.

Now the question becomes, are the Saints in heaven as we speak? are they alive? The Catholic church believes they are. How much more powerful are the prayers of ther Saints, living in Gods presence?

So since we know the Saints are alive and praying for us, it is only logical to join them and ask for their prayers or in other words, their "ïntercession".

As for the priest thing, Catholics do not believe it is the priest forgiving us, it is Christ and Christ alone. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is an awesome GIFT, instituted by God. He wants us to have and "use"(bad word) this precsious gift. Personally, my most profound encounters with Christ have occured while partaking in this Sacrament. It is awseome!.

Peace.
MY ADVICE ON PRAYER AND I'LL END THIS HOPEFULLY:

If you have God living inside you, you have the Power of the Holy Spirit to speak directly to God without any intervention. My prayers are never "canned". They are heart-felt. My prayers are personal. I don't say the Hail Mary or the our Father even though they are great prayers. Its just when I say them, they are not heart felt because they are totally memorized. I would encourage all Catholics who pray at the supper table or at night with God to make it personal. God knows what's in the heart. I'm sure He gets bored with repetitiveness of "canned" prayers. It's not from the heart and He feels it.
 
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DarkLord

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Both hail mary and our father are from scripture.


Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words.
Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying "God be merciful to me, a sinner." This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart.

Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty." This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God.

There is nothing wrong wif repition as u paint it to be. The rosary is very beautiful prayer. The question here however is not how to pray...but to whom do we ask to pray fer us.

U believe i can ask christ alone...next time dont bother praying fer anyone or ask anyone to pray fer u....u have jesus...its enough.

Just ignore the verses in revelations abt the prayers of the saints, ignore the fact it was mary who asked christ to do his first miracle, ignore the fact that the prayers of the rigteous is good.
 
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hsilgne

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MY ADVICE ON PRAYER AND I'LL END THIS HOPEFULLY:

If you have God living inside you, you have the Power of the Holy Spirit to speak directly to God without any intervention. My prayers are never "canned". They are heart-felt. My prayers are personal. I don't say the Hail Mary or the our Father even though they are great prayers. Its just when I say them, they are not heart felt because they are totally memorized. I would encourage all Catholics who pray at the supper table or at night with God to make it personal. God knows what's in the heart. I'm sure He gets bored with repetitiveness of "canned" prayers. It's not from the heart and He feels it.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

We're off topic and your right it should end.

For the record, being Catholic doesn't equal memorizing a list of approved prayers. A prayerful Catholic, prays just like you, and then some;) .

So back to the OP.

Peter was the first Pope. agreed? :wave: ;)

Peace.
 
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DArceri

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Judge not lest ye be judged.

We're off topic and your right it should end.

For the record, being Catholic doesn't equal memorizing a list of approved prayers. A prayerful Catholic, prays just like you, and then some;) .

So back to the OP.

Peter was the first Pope. agreed? :wave: ;)

Peace.
There is authority granted to every believer through the name of Jesus. Authority is delegated power. The very source of our authority comes from Christ’s resurrection and the seating of Christ by God at His right hand.


These signs shall follow those who believe. It is not just the anointed preacher with the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating within his or her ministry, but these signs shall follow those who believe. Begin to declare I’m one of those who believe, I’m a believer, therefor these signs shall follow me.




In another example of faith in the name of Jesus, Peter said this of the crippled man…

Acts 3:16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all........ Faith in the name of Jesus made him whole, the name that is above every name!!!!



 
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hsilgne

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There is authority granted to every believer through the name of Jesus. Authority is delegated power. The very source of our authority comes from Christ’s resurrection and the seating of Christ by God at His right hand.


These signs shall follow those who believe. It is not just the anointed preacher with the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating within his or her ministry, but these signs shall follow those who believe. Begin to declare I’m one of those who believe, I’m a believer, therefor these signs shall follow me.




In another example of faith in the name of Jesus, Peter said this of the crippled man…

Acts 3:16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all........ Faith in the name of Jesus made him whole, the name that is above every name!!!!

I agree and so does the Catholic Church.

What is your point?

Peace.
 
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