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Peter Is Not The Rock!

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JacktheCatholic

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Being martyred in Rome, which is what 1 Clement claims, is not the same as being "pope."

Didn't you know that many of the Patriarchs and Bishops were referred to as Pope. It simply means father or pappa. We still see the Patriarch of Rome as the Holy Father. Of course do not confuse this with any connection to God being Father. So many people want to jump on that band wagon. If you do not understand then I can help, just do not say you cannot call a man father because they is ignorant and I think highly of people here. But just in case... Paul called himself Father of the churches he started. So we cannot accuse Catholcism with blasphemey if Paul did it in scripture, now can we?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Peter's body? I give that claim about as much credibility as the multiple, mutually exclusive claims of many RC churches to the "Holy Prepuce." But even if the RCC had Peter's body, that would at most prove he died in Rome.

You have missed the point entirely... :doh:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LOL :D

Sorry... it takes time to learn Catholicism because it is 2,000 years old and full of history and language that most are not familiar with and do not understand. I would have said the same thing about 5 years ago.

Do not worry about that last part...
Now if the RCs would devote as much time to the Bible as they do learning about Catholicism, think of the greet Awkening thou would have ;)

Matthew 24:28 "For the where ever may be the corpse, there shall be being gathered the eagles/aetoi <105>. [Luke 17:37]

Reve 19:17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds/orneoiV <3732>, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered into the Supper of the Great God
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Now if the RCs would devote as much time to the Bible as they do learning about Catholicism, think of the greet Awkening thou would have ;)

Matthew 24:28 "For the where ever may be the corpse, there shall be being gathered the eagles/aetoi <105>. [Luke 17:37]

Reve 19:17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds/orneoiV <3732>, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered into the Supper of the Great God

Catholicism is the teachings of God.

Is it the Catholic Church's fault that it has the teachings in full and not only the bible?

Catholics put together the New Testament from more than 200 books and so the Catholic Church is the author of the New Testament. God guides His church as He promised.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Catholicism is the teachings of God.

Is it the Catholic Church's fault that it has the teachings in full and not only the bible?

Catholics put together the New Testament from more than 200 books and so the Catholic Church is the author of the New Testament. God guides His church as He promised.
I thought the Orthodox church put it together and they evidently saw no need of a Pope like the RCs seem to think.
But then, that is between your church and their church. :)

Revelation 18:7 So as She-glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be ye giving! to Her torment and mourning. That in the heart of Her She is saying 'I am sitting/kaqh-mai <2521> (5736) a Queen, and a Widow/chra <5503> not I-am, and mourning not no I may be seeing'

Luke 16:19 A certain Man was rich and clothed/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I thought the Orthodox church put it together and they evidently saw no need of a Pope like the RCs seem to think.
But then, that is between your church and their church. :)

Revelation 18:7 So as She-glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be ye giving! to Her torment and mourning. That in the heart of Her She is saying 'I am sitting/kaqh-mai <2521> (5736) a Queen, and a Widow/chra <5503> not I-am, and mourning not no I may be seeing'

Luke 16:19 A certain Man was rich and clothed/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly

You should know that I see RCC and EOC and OOC as the same Catholic Church of the Early Church Fathers. You will find that until the great schism the RCC and EOC and OOC share many things like Saints and theology too. So for our debates I see Early Church Fathers being used primarily since they were the closest to the Apostles. That means RCC and EOC and OOC are going to be the same. *though I still see us as the same today. ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You should know that I see RCC and EOC and OOC as the same Catholic Church of the Early Church Fathers. You will find that until the great schism the RCC and EOC and OOC share many things like Saints and theology too. So for our debates I see Early Church Fathers being used primarily since they were the closest to the Apostles. That means RCC and EOC and OOC are going to be the same. *though I still see us as the same today. ;)
I never had the need to use them so that can be between you 3. :)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263824
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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LittleLambofJesus

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Zoness

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That means RCC and EOC and OOC are going to be the same. *though I still see us as the same today. ;)

Aren't the EOC and OCC independent of a single leader like the Pope? Some would consider that a major difference. Besides if they were the same wouldn't they all be in communion together?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Aren't the EOC and OCC independent of a single leader like the Pope? Some would consider that a major difference. Besides if they were the same wouldn't they all be in communion together?

They have a Patriarch whom leads their church.

The Patriarch is like what Paul was to Corinth.

Communion gets in to many details and what I would share would be from the RCC.
 
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Zoness

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They have a Patriarch whom leads their church.

The Patriarch is like what Paul was to Corinth.

Communion gets in to many details and what I would share would be from the RCC.

Yeah communion is a scary matter. The EOC has several patriarchs if I remember right. Heads of Alexandria, Antioch, Jeruselem, Byzentine (sp? / Istanbul) and uh crap I forgot the last one, sorry EO people!
 
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Photini

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Yeah communion is a scary matter. The EOC has several patriarchs if I remember right. Heads of Alexandria, Antioch, Jeruselem, Byzentine (sp? / Istanbul) and uh crap I forgot the last one, sorry EO people!

Right now the EP of Constantinople holds the designation "First among equals", a title that would be returned to the RC were we to reconcile.


And remember, when discussing who "put together the NT", the EO, RC and OO were all in communion at that time. So when any one of these three claims that their church had part in compiling the books of the NT, they are all correct.
 
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Flibbertigibbet

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Try reading Matthew 16 in Aramaic since that is what it would have been written in originally (or at the very least the language Jesus spoke to the Jews). You will find that Peter and Rock are the same word. Jesus changed Simon's name to Rock much like how God changed Abrahms name to Abraham.
Repeatedly, throughout Scripture, Jesus Himself is referred to as the cornerstone.

Does the entire argument hang upon this one verse? And one which, you indicate in your post, may have been originally WRITTEN in the Greek? And if there is no evidence that this verse was ever WRITTEN in Aramaic, do you then disagree that all Scripture is God-breathed and divinely inspired so as to make the petros/petras distinction quite valid?

Also, where are the writings from the other Apostles which confirm Peter as the rock upon which the Church will be built? I don't find them in any of the translations I have studied.

(sorry if this sounds argumentative, that's not my intent. I'm typing hurriedly as my toddler is calling me)
 
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Zoness

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Right now the EP of Constantinople holds the designation "First among equals", a title that would be returned to the RC were we to reconcile.


And remember, when discussing who "put together the NT", the EO, RC and OO were all in communion at that time. So when any one of these three claims that their church had part in compiling the books of the NT, they are all correct.

Ok thanks for clearing that matter up.
 
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beamishboy

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I agree with the former but not the latter. There is not one scintilla of credible evidence that Peter was ever bishop of Rome.


Being martyred in Rome, which is what 1 Clement claims, is not the same as being "pope."

I agree entirely. The absence of evidence has never stopped the RCC from anything. The same goes with absence of scriptural approval, absence of a particular doctrine in the NT. All these absences don't affect the RCC at all. It's nothing new.
 
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archierieus

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Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Letter to the Archbishop of Boston, 1949: DS 3866-3872

Capital. Simply capital. This is the kind of documentation which I was looking for. It is, indeed, helpful in understanding legislative intent and intended appliction. I note the following statements:

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church. . . . Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ . . . Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place, by which we are commanded to be incorporated by Baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth. Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation, without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the Sacrament of Regeneration and in reference to the Sacrament of Penance (Denzinger, nn. 797, 807).
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943 "On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ" (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire . . . Toward the end of this same Encyclical Letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, loc. cit., 243). With these wise words he reproves . . . those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution "Singulari quadam," in Denzinger, nn. 1641, ff.&#8212;also Pope Pius IX in the Encyclical Letter "Quanto conficiamur moerore" in Denzinger, n. 1677).
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Hebrews, 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801) . . . .

Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. . . . submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem, and remain
Your Excellency's most devoted
F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani
A. Ottaviani
Assessor

To His Excellency
Most Reverend Richard James Cushing
Archbishop of Boston

1px_transparent.gif

1px_transparent.gif

Rome has indeed spoken. The whole discussion, on this thread, has been most interesting to this student. I am looking in from the outside. Advocates for the RCC, including a 'catechist,' have represented that I and others who profess Christianity should unite ourselves with the RCC. Therefore, I must sit as a trier of fact and weigh the evidence--and make a decision. I have done so. The above document, cited to in the current RCC catechism I believe, has been most helpful in reaching a decision. I should like to share that a bit later, after taking time for a little more reflection.

Regards to all,
Dave
 
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Brennin

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Didn't you know that many of the Patriarchs and Bishops were referred to as Pope. It simply means father or pappa. We still see the Patriarch of Rome as the Holy Father. Of course do not confuse this with any connection to God being Father. So many people want to jump on that band wagon. If you do not understand then I can help, just do not say you cannot call a man father because they is ignorant and I think highly of people here. But just in case... Paul called himself Father of the churches he started. So we cannot accuse Catholcism with blasphemey if Paul did it in scripture, now can we?

The inappropriateness of addressing clergy as "father" is a separate issue. I could just as well have written "bishop of Rome" instead of "pope."
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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.......Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation, without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory............
Wow. First time I noticed that part. Quick, where is the sign up paper!!!!

Reve 7:14 And I said to him: "Lord! of me, thou knowest". And he said to me "these are the ones coming out of the tribulation, the great. And they rinse/plunge the robes of them and they whiten them in the blood of the Lamb-kin.
 
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