Peter Is Not The Rock!

[LittleLambofJesus]

Reve 12:7 And became a battle in the heaven, the Michael [Paul/Grace] and the messengers of him do battle with the dragon [Peter/Law] and the dragon battles and the messengers of him
8 and not he is strong, neither place was found of them further in the heaven

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of Chief-Messenger, and in a Trumpet of God,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I found this interesting. While studying on "the Michael" in Revelation and Dan 12, I came across the word "chief messenger" in 1 Thess 4:16.

The word for chief is also used as a prefix concerning Paul being a chief artificer/craftman of which that word is used for the Lord JESUS in Mark 6:3. Without looking at the greek, I would not have noticed this. FASCINATING!!!

Mark 6:3 "Not this is the artificer/tektwn <5045>, the son of Mariam,

1 Corin 3:10 According to the Grace of the GOD the being given to me as a wise Chief-artificer/craftsman/arci-tektwn <753> a foundation I lay, another yet is building on it. Each one yet let be heeding! how he is building on it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of Chief-Messenger/arc-aggelou <743>, and in a Trumpet of God,

 

[visionary]

And what did the corrupt Judean rulers eventually do with those Oracles that were given to the OC Hebrew Israelites at Mt Sinai.

Galatian 4:24 which-any/s is an allegory. For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating/gennwsa <1080> who-any is Hagar;
Gala 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Be Casting Out!/#1537-#906 ek-bale (5628)] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-one;' [Genesis 21:10]

Reve 11:2 and the Court, the-one with-out of-the [/SIZE]Sanctuary, be Casting Out!/#1537-#906 ek-bale (5628)] out-side/exw <1854>

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7272732
The Court in Revelation 11:2

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Read Rev11:1 and 2 more carefully and you will see that there are two groups, those that are in the temple and those that are outside. The ones outside are at the cross. Those inside are in the Most Holy as part of the royal priesthood on the atonement day.. study the rock more

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Read Rev11:1 and 2 more carefully and you will see that there are two groups, those that are in the temple and those that are outside. The ones outside are at the cross. Those inside are in the Most Holy as part of the royal priesthood on the atonement day.. study the rock more

I can look back at Matthew for most of Revelation

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is able any-one to be entering into the House of the Strong-one, and the instruments of him to snatch-away, if ever no first he should be binding the strong-one? And then his House he shall be snatching-away. [Mark 3:27/Reve 15:8]

Matthew 26:64 Is saying unto Him, the Jesus: "Thou say, moreover I am saying unto ye, from now/arti <737> ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of rights/dexiwn <1188> of the power, and coming upon the clouds of the heaven".

Reve 15:8 And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of Smoke out of the Glory of the God, and out of the power of Him. And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers.

 

[hogndog]

This "one true church" doctrine can be traced to one verse of Scripture, which, when compared with other Scriptures, is found not to teach this doctrine at all. When Jesus asked his disciples who He was, Peter responded:
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Matthew 16:16"

Then Jesus answered Peter:
"... thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

Catholicism contends that the Lord was referring to Peter as the rock, and has since built the entire Catholic religion upon that premise. But all other pertinent Scriptures declare that Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock, not Peter:
"... for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4

 

[Trento]

Catholicism contends that the Lord was referring to Peter as the rock, and has since built the entire Catholic religion upon that premise. But all other pertinent Scriptures declare that Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock, not Peter:
"... for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4

Did you ever consult Protestant Bibical scholars?
All of the fallowing quotations are from Protestant biblical scholars.

According to
William Hendriksen
member of the Reformed Christian Church
Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary
The meaning is, "You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church." Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, said, "And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church." Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.


New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew
(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973), page 647
JPK page 14
Gerhard Maier
leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian
Nowadays a broad consensus has emerged which — in accordance with the words of the text — applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal (H. J. Holtzmann, E. Schweiger) and conservative (Cullmann, Flew) theologians agree, as well as representatives of Roman Catholic exegesis.


"The Church in the Gospel of Matthew: Hermeneutical Analysis of the Current Debate"
Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context
(Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984), page 58
JPK pages 16-17
Donald A. Carson III
Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary
(two quotations from different works)
Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock" respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock". The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name.


The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke)
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), page 368
JPK pages 17-18
The word Peter petros, meaning "rock" (Gk 4377), is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken "rock" to be anything or anyone other than Peter.


Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary — New Testament, vol. 2
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994), page 78
JPK page 18
John Peter Lange
German Protestant scholar
The Saviour, no doubt, used in both clauses the Aramaic word kepha (hence the Greek Kephas applied to Simon, John i.42; comp. 1 Cor. i.12; iii.22; ix.5; Gal. ii.9), which means rock and is used both as a proper and a common noun.... The proper translation then would be: "Thou art Rock, and upon this rock", etc.


Lange's Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: The Gospel According to Matthew, vol. 8
(Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976), page 293
JPK page 19
John A. Broadus
Baptist author
(two quotations from the same work)
Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broken off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed.
But the main answer here is that our Lord undoubtedly spoke Aramaic, which has no known means of making such a distinction [between feminine petra and masculine petros in Greek]. The Peshitta (Western Aramaic) renders, "Thou are kipho, and on this kipho". The Eastern Aramaic, spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ, must necessarily have said in like manner, "Thou are kepha, and on this kepha".... Beza called attention to the fact that it is so likewise in French: "Thou art Pierre, and on this pierre"; and Nicholson suggests that we could say, "Thou art Piers (old English for Peter), and on this pier."



Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
(Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), pages 355-356
JPK page 20
J. Knox Chamblin
Presbyterian and New Testament Professor
Reformed Theological Seminary
By the words "this rock" Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter's confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the Builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself. The demonstrative this, whether denoting what is physically close to Jesus or what is literally close in Matthew, more naturally refers to Peter (v. 18) than to the more remote confession (v. 16). The link between the clauses of verse 18 is made yet stronger by the play on words, "You are Peter (Gk. Petros), and on this rock (Gk. petra) I will build my church". As an apostle, Peter utters the confession of verse 16; as a confessor he receives the designation this rock from Jesus.


"Matthew"
Evangelical Commentary on the Bible
(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1989), page 742
JPK page 30
Craig L. Blomberg
Baptist and Professor of New Testament
Denver Seminary
Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon's nickname "Peter" (Petros = rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus' declaration, "You are Peter", parallels Peter's confession, "You are the Christ", as if to say, "Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are." The expression "this rock" almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following "the Christ" in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter's name (Petros) and the word "rock" (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification.


The New American Commentary: Matthew, vol. 22
(Nashville: Broadman, 1992), pages 251-252
JPK pages 31-32
David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies
University of Sheffield, England
On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the "rock" as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.


"The Gospel of Matthew"
The New Century Bible Commentary
(London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1972), page 261
JPK page 34
Suzanne de Dietrich
Presbyterian theologian
The play on words in verse 18 indicates the Aramaic origin of the passage. The new name contains a promise. "Simon", the fluctuating, impulsive disciple, will, by the grace of God, be the "rock" on which God will build the new community.


The Layman's Bible Commentary: Matthew, vol. 16
(Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1961), page 93
JPK page 34
Donald A. Hagner
Fuller Theological Seminary
The natural reading of the passage, despite the necessary shift from Petros to petra required by the word play in the Greek (but not the Aramaic, where the same word kepha occurs in both places), is that it is Peter who is the rock upon which the church is to be built.... The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny this in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock... seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy.


Matthew 14-28
Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 33b
(Dallas: Word Books, 1995), page 470
JPK pages 36-37

 

[Rick Otto]

Word play & papal legitimacy issues aside, the cornerstone would be the stone in the foundation that would be described as 'the one' stone that a structure is built on.
Mr 12:10 - Show Context And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did you ever consult Protestant Bibical scholars?
All of the fallowing quotations are from Protestant biblical scholars.

So what defines a scholar

Matt 21:33 Another parable hear ye! A certain Man was home-owner who-any plants a vineyard/ampelwna <290>, and a barrier/fence to it places-about, and excavates in it a winepress/lhnon <3025> and builds a Tower and granted it to Farmers and he travels. [Isaiah 5:1-3/Reve 14:20]

Reve 14:20 And was trodden the winepress/lhnoV <3025> outside of the City, and came out blood out of the winepress/lhnou <3025> until of the bridles/bits/ of the horses, from stadia thousand six-hundred

 

[Rick Otto]

So what defines a scholar?

Establishment approval.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Establishment approval.

If JESUS could buck the Establishment, I sure the heck can

John 19:12 Out of this sought the Pilate to loose Him. The yet Judeans cried out saying "if-ever this-One thou should be loosing not thou are friend of the Caesar. Every-one the one a king making is instead/anti-legei <483> to-the Caesar.

 

[sunlover1]

.

I believe the subject of this thread is whether or not the "Rock" in Matt .16 refers to Peter. The answer is, IT DOES, as these protestant ministers point out:

ALBERT BARNES (NINETEENTH-CENTURY PRESBYTERIAN)
"The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: &#8216;Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion" [Barnes&#8217; Notes on the New Testament, 170].

JOHN BROADUS ( NINETEENTH-CENTURY CALVINISTIC BAPTIST)
"As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that &#8216;upon this rock&#8217; means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter&#8217;s confession" [Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

CRAIG L. BLOMBERG ( CONTEMPORARY BAPTIST)
"The expression &#8216;this rock&#8217; almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following &#8216;the Christ&#8217; in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter&#8217;s name (Petros) and the word &#8216;rock&#8217; (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification" [New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

J. KNOX CHAMBLIN ( CONTEMPORARY PRESBYTERIAN)
"By the words &#8216;this rock&#8217; Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter&#8217;s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself" ["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R. T. FRANCE ( CONTEMPORARY ANGLICAN)
"The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus&#8217; declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter&#8217;s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter&#8217;s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church&#8217;s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied" (Gospel According to Matthew, 254).

HERMAN RIDDERBOS ( CONTEMPORARY DUTCH REFORMED)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated &#8216;rock&#8217; here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (&#8216;Peter&#8217 to petra is that petra was the normal word for &#8216;rock.&#8217; . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words &#8216;on this rock [petra]&#8217; indeed refer to Peter" [Bible Student&#8217;s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

DONALD HAGNER ( CONTEMPORARY EVANGELICAL)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy" (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).[/quote]

I dont mean to sound argumentative, but seriously, you can post
views of other men and then I can post views of men who disagree
with your men and on and on we could go without end amen.
Jesus didnt build His church upon any man imo. It's on the revelation,
that revelation of the Son of God, the Rock of our salvation. Bless
Peter's Jesus loving little heart, he was not and is not the rock

Originally Posted by katholikos

I'm sorry. Were you under the impression I was trying to prove something?
​

I don't need to prove the truth. The Pope is the successor of Saint Peter and Vicar of Christ. That is a fact

But your 'facts' and the other historical 'facts' seem to
be in disagreement, which is suspect imo. But the main
thing is that we all agree that God so loved the World
that He gave His only Son, that whosoever shall believe
upon Him shall not perish. (Why did God love the world,
but then told us not to love the world or the things of
the world btw?)

I'm looking for a few good songs to download to my ipod,
got any ideas?

Here's a good one that this post reminded me of,
but I already own it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJAvPQyS5O0




​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm looking for a few good songs to download to my ipod,
got any ideas?

Here's a good one that this post reminded me of,
but I already own it:

I picked a song by Jimi Hendrix for Isaiah 5/Matt 21 [I love this song!!!!]

Isaiah 5:1 I shall sing please! for friend/beloved of me a song of friend/beloved of me for a vineyard of him, a vineyard he was to friend/beloved of me in horn to son of oil. 2 And He is cultivating and throwing out stones and He is planting it yellow-muscat and he is building a TOWER/04026 migdal in midst of it and moreover a wine-press he hewed and he is expecting to yield of Grapes, but it is yielding stinking-fruit

Matt 21:33 Another parable hear ye! A certain Man was home-owner who-any plants a vineyard, and a barrier/fence to it places-about, and excavates in it a winepress and builds a TOWER and granted it to Farmers/Dressers and he travels. [Isaiah 5:1-3/Reve 14:20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD7s4i_X-p0&feature=related

 

[sunlover1]

That's awesome lamby, and I love it... But we have jimi.. and I was
thinking of something that's new to me (AND not really looking for
some good music to get stoned with today )
Got anything I probably havent heard?

 

[CardinalSin]

Of course St Peter is the rock. Mother Church says so. That ends all debate.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's awesome lamby, and I love it... But we have jimi.. and I was
thinking of something that's new to me (AND not really looking for
some good music to get stoned with today )
Got anything I probably havent heard?

Hmm. Don't really know. Sometimes while reading the Bible a verse may pop up at me and I try to pick a song that I like to go with it while still respecting the LORD.
Some of these could appeal to younger people as the do have a good rythm and beat to it and perhaps might make the Bible a little more enjoyable.
I picked this song to go with "Rest" called "Relax"

Matthew 11:29 "Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to the souls of ye"

Reve 4:8 And the four living-ones, one according to one to-them, having above wings, six compassing. And within they are being replete of eyes, and Rest/ana-pausin <372> not they are having day and night saying: "Holy Holy Holy Lord the GOD, the Almighty, the One-was, and the One-being, and the One-coming' [Isaiah 6:3/Matt 11:29/Reve 4:8, 14:11]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WZ33w3B8Hw

 

[Rick Otto]

Heard Enya?
The opposite of the cityscape, but with that same dream-like quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a88-Tyl1gkI

 

[Rick Otto]

Of course St Peter is the rock. Mother Church says so. That ends all debate.

That would certainly be tidy if it were true.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by CardinalSin

Of course St Peter is the rock. Mother Church says so. That ends all debate.
​

That would certainly be tidy if it were true.

I guess that would make the Orthodox church the Father Church

Joel 1:11 Farmers are shamed, they howl ones been vineyard-dressers over wheat/grain and over barley that harvest of field perishes

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a sound in midst of the four living ones, saying: "choinex of grain/wheat/sitou <4621> of denarius and three choinex of barleys/kriqhV <2915> of denarius, and the olive-oil/elaion <1637> and the wine/oinon <3631> no you should be injuring".

Reve 18:13 and cinnamon, and ginger, and incenses, and attar, and frankincense, and wine/oinon <3631>, and olive-oil/elaion <1637>, and fine-flour, and grain/wheat/siton <4621>, and cattle/beasts, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.

 

[visionary]

Of course St Peter is the rock. Mother Church says so. That ends all debate.

For you it is a no brainer... for those who search the scriptures to see if it is so.. there is much prayer and study and waiting for the Lord to reveal to confirm or deny this concept of Peter as the rock which Yeshua was speaking of.

 

[hogndog]

I saw Jimmy two weeks before he drowned in his own vomit, seemed like a nice enough Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Ebcx-mTns

Why are we hijacking this thread?