Peter Is Not The Rock!

[archierieus]

Greetings. I do not see the word "sons" in the greek in that passage. Perhaps it is implied?

Matt 10:2 Of the yet twelve Apostles the names is these: first Simon/simwn <4613>, the one being said Peter/petroV <4074>, and Andrew/andreaV <406> the brother of him, and James/iakwboV <2385> the of the Zebede/zebedaiou <2199> and John/iwannhV <2491> the brother of him.

Matthew 10:2 twn de dwdeka apostolwn ta onomata estin tauta prwtoV simwn o legomenoV petroV kai andreaV o adelfoV autou iakwboV o tou zebedaiou kai iwannhV o adelfoV autou

Yes, it is an idiom. Transliterated it is as you have posted. A literal reading would be something like this: Iakob the one of (or from) Zebedee. (Note the definite article 'ho' when used with a proper name--'he' or 'the one.')

Dave

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I did give the citing in the post. Don't remember how it got moved to Matt. 10 along the trail.

"And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder"

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48711275&postcount=1530

enjoy!

squint

Well, because I overlooked this Mark 3:17 I pretty much lost some of my credibility. But that is because I failed to address the issue of Peter receiving a name like Abraham properly. So, I am going to let this go.

But I wanted to add something I found that you and others may find interesting.

Quote:
Fishermen: Peter and Andrew (and James and John) were commercial fishers based on one of the centers of the fishing industry located near the sea of Galilee that is Capernaum. There were other commercial fishing towns in the region such as Bethsaida ("house of fishing") and Magdala (Migdal Nunaya, "bulwark of the fishes") or Tarichaea ("salting installation for fish," the Greek name of Magdala). Fishermen would usually sell the fish they caught fresh in the local markets, while the rest they would salt and dry for export as far as Spain.

Being a fisherman was a hard, strenuous job that ruled out the weak and indolent. Fishermen were quite crude in manner, rough in both speech and their treatment of others (John and James were in fact called by Jesus the 'sons of thunder') yet they were also hardy and fearless, having been exposed to various toils and the dangers of the water and the weather. They were also patient due to experience, as they often toiled for hours without success yet were always willing to try once more.

 

[squint]

Well, because I overlooked this Mark 3:17 I pretty much lost some of my credibility. But that is because I failed to address the issue of Peter receiving a name like Abraham properly. So, I am going to let this go.

No loss of anything with me Jack. Doesn't mean I'd think any less of ya whatsoever.

I find all scripture most interesting and spend a considerable time therein mostly in contemplation. Also learned a GREAT DEAL from sharing with others.

If we end up using our faith to condemn others such would seem little good to me if any good at all and certainly no good for others.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This topic would make for a good poll but I am not sure how I would present the questions. Any ideas?

 

[archierieus]

Hi LLoJ,

Seems to me this topic is pretty much played out. It's been an interesting discussion, though.

Dave

 

[Job2]

Wow, what an arguement. Ok, lets say Jesus did call Peter the ROCK, so? Peter died along time ago. Jesus`s church has grown and keeps growing.

 

[Anglian]

Certainly Christ called Peter 'the Rock'. Most of the ECFs interpreted this as a reference to St. Peter's declaration of faith. The foundation of all our faith is our belief that Jesus is the Christ.

In one Christian tradition this has come to be understood as Christ creating an office which is invested in the holder of the bishopric of Rome; in other Christian traditions this is not accepted. This appears unlikely to change, since both traditions can be attested from the earliest times, depending on how one reads the attestations.

It is a shame that this Rock has become one upon which attempts at Christian unity founder, but we can simply acknowledge that on this we differ and will continue to do so. We can acknowledge the sincerity of believers on both sides of this discussion, and continue to try to love one another and bear a witness to the foundation of any Church - the Lord Jesus Christ.

peace be with us all,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Well since Peter is not around any more I would say that Christ is the true rock on which we all stand. For He forever lives..

 

[Chickapee]

great posts and points everyone
Jesus is the Rock and the revelation of Truth is the key to what sets us Free !
Praise God ,
In Jesus peace ... C

 

[archierieus]

Certainly Christ called Peter 'the Rock'.

That, of course, is an statement of belief. It has value as such, but as a statement of belief, it does not have evidentiary value in terms of textual evidence. Several individuals have posted on this threadthe discrepancy between the "Rock" (tauth th petra) upon which Christ founded His church, and the nickname 'Petros.' Among other things, the antecedent of "this Rock" needs to match in gender, which it does not with respect to 'Petros.' Of course, the two words themselves represent different concepts, as well. And, the subsequent history, recorded in Scripture, does not give support to the idea of Christ's church being founded upon Peter. It DOES support the understanding that Christ is "this Rock" upon which He built His church. That is Scriptural, and is so stated elsewhere in Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture is Peter stated or described historically as being the 'Rock' upon which Christ founded His church.


There are indeed those who believe, as Anglian mentioned, that the 'Rock' may refer back to the declaration of faith, as to which all believers in Jesus make. To that understanding, then, the declaration of faith is the 'Rock.' I do not find other Scriptural support for that notion. Nowhere is 'our faith' described as the foundation, that I can recall. I do, however, find ample Scriptural support for the understanding that Christ is the Rock upon which His church (not man's church(es) are founded.

It is a shame that this Rock has become one upon which attempts at Christian unity founder, but we can simply acknowledge that on this we differ and will continue to do so.

But the difference is fundamental: either the supremacy of God "and His Christ," the Lord Jesus Christ, or the supremacy of a man. For the claim to supremacy of the 'Roman pontiff' over 'every human creature' and the demand that every person must submit to the Roman pontiff in order to have salvation, is based upon the claim about Peter being 'the Rock' and the 'Roman pontiff' being the successor of Peter. Either it is God and His Word, the Bible, or man and his tradition. With all respect which is properly due our esteemed online colleague Anglian, one simply cannot have it both ways.

We can acknowledge the sincerity of believers on both sides of this discussion, and continue to try to love one another and bear a witness to the foundation of any Church - the Lord Jesus Christ.

We can do that, and at the same time, if we are sincere, we reasonably will have a desire to find out more and more of God's truth from His holy Word, the Bible. And the Holy Spirit is sent to bring believers into one accord ON THE BASIS OF THE BIBLE. (Jn. 17)


Regards,
Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Anglian Certainly Christ called Peter 'the Rock'.

Ok let't go with that. How did the RCC get the pope out of that? Is it because they used the Aramaic? Sorry, I will stick with the greek as I have always done. Thoughts?

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art petroV and upon tauth <3778>, the petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing/katiscusousin <2729> (5692) of her;

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........

You can see in this interlinear the places that exact form of the word is used which is 32 times out of the 465 times #3778 is used.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

 

[Annolennar]

We've got a copy of Jesus' Aramaic words hidden in the secret Vatican library. We're not showing it to anyone though, sorry.

<---- Swiss Guard on duty

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We've got a copy of Jesus' Aramaic words hidden in the secret Vatican library. We're not showing it to anyone though, sorry.

<---- Swiss Guard on duty

Oh. Gotta find a chink in their armor in that case

Recruits of the Vatican's elite Swiss Guard check their uniform before the swearing in ceremony for new members at the Cortile di San Damaso on May 6, 2008 in Vatican City (Italy). The swearing in ceremony is held on May 6 every year to commemorate the 147 halberdiers who died defending the pope in 1527.

 

[beamishboy]

We've got a copy of Jesus' Aramaic words hidden in the secret Vatican library. We're not showing it to anyone though, sorry.

<---- Swiss Guard on duty

They do well to have everything hidden and secret, don't they?

 

[Annolennar]

Oh. Gotta find a chink in their armor in that case

Aren't those uniforms just awful?

They do well to have everything hidden and secret, don't they?

Yeah, it keeps the riff-raff out.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Aren't those uniforms just awful?
Yeah, it keeps the riff-raff out.

Unless of course it is the riff-raffs that are keeping them

 

[beamishboy]

Unless of course it is the riff-raffs that are keeping them

Riff-raffs is Latin for TRUTH!!! The beamishboy should know for he is the Knight of Truth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Annolennar Aren't those uniforms just awful?
Yeah, it keeps the riff-raff out.

Unless of course it is the riff-raffs that are keeping them

Riff-raffs is Latin for TRUTH!!! The beamishboy should know for he is the Knight of Truth.

Hmmm. Didn't know that. I was implying something different though <sarcasm>.

 

[Annolennar]

Unless of course it is the riff-raffs that are keeping them

True, but I wouldn't say that anywhere within a mile of the Swiss Guard.

Riff-raffs is Latin for TRUTH!!! The beamishboy should know for he is the Knight of Truth.

The greek word for riffraff is "hoi polloi". I wonder if thats in the NT?

 

[beamishboy]

Hmmm. Didn't know that. I was implying something different though <sarcasm>.

Don't know about sarcasm. I'm not good at that. My teacher always complains that I miss the sarcasm in a piece of prose when it's there. I'm sometimes tempted to tell him that the beamishboy is a Knight of Truth and Knights of Truth don't do sarcasm. We just call a spade a spade. Hehe.

But riff-raffs is a variant of "veritas" which means TRUTH in Latin. I can understand why Annolennar says the RCC strives to keep it out.