Peter Is Not The Rock!

[MamaZ]

This is why because they kept saying we are the Children of Abraham Jesus says before Abraham was I Am.

 

[MamaZ]

I am certain there were many private conversations between Christ and all of his disciples. These were not recorded. To assume this was recorded for no purpose relating to us .... what else are we going to write off as being 'not meant for us'? Or do we believe that every word, every letter has its purpose, for us?

It is written for us. For we can see through scripture and the Holy Spirit as our teacher How personable Christ is with His people. Very uplifting to know that Jesus is that intimate with us.

 

[narnia59]

Now we see that those who believe in Christ greater things will they Do. Not those who believe in Peter.

Again, creating a false dichotomy. It is not a choice between the two. Never has been, never will be. Just like because my husband is my spiritual head -- he is not replacing Christ. The idea that we have spiritual fathers is indeed scriptural. Paul refers to himself in this role. Does that mean that those who accepted his spiritual fatherhood chose him over Christ?

 

[narnia59]

This is why because they kept saying we are the Children of Abraham Jesus says before Abraham was I Am.

And yet the apostles still refer to Father Abraham long after the resurrection, just as Jesus did.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am certain there were many private conversations between Christ and all of his disciples. These were not recorded. To assume this was recorded for no purpose relating to us .... what else are we going to write off as being 'not meant for us'? Or do we believe that every word, every letter has its purpose, for us?

Do ya think this was meant for us?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

Revelation 14:1 And I saw and Behold! [*the] a lamb-kin standing upon the mount Zion and with it a hundred forty four thousands having the name [*of it and the name] of the father of it having been written on the fourheads of them.

 

[narnia59]

Dear Narnia,

Thanks for your continued patience. As an Orthodox, I am still awaiting a satisfactory answer to the question of why Christ changed Peter's name to rock and then said 'on this rock'.

We say, as many of the ECFs did, that it is the rock of Peter's faith, but some also read it the other way. The issue of the keys also seems significant, and I don't see the answers any of us giving on these two things as representing anything more than one tradition of interpretation. What remains odd to my mind is that it seems to be the non-Catholics arguing there is only one way of reading these verses, when patently there has always been more than that.

You make a good case, and I, for one, am glad for your continued patience.

Peace,

Anglian

Thank you Anglian. Although I believe you are the master of both patience and charity from which we could all learn.

I actually wanted to go back to your post about the nature of the papacy developing over time as circumstances required. I had some thoughts about that but was trying to find some reference material.

I so need a better filing system than my limited memory.

 

[MamaZ]

Again, creating a false dichotomy. It is not a choice between the two. Never has been, never will be. Just like because my husband is my spiritual head -- he is not replacing Christ. The idea that we have spiritual fathers is indeed scriptural. Paul refers to himself in this role. Does that mean that those who accepted his spiritual fatherhood chose him over Christ?

It would if your husand told you that He was the only one that knew the truth and that you had to follow what he taught. We see Paul Preached Christ, Peter preached Christ.. They did not ever state that they were the head. They never stated that they were the PAPA. So therefore We only have one Father. For those who belong to Christ are one in the Spirit.

 

[narnia59]

Do ya think this was meant for us?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

Revelation 14:1 And I saw and Behold! [*the] a lamb-kin standing upon the mount Zion and with it a hundred forty four thousands having the name [*of it and the name] of the father of it having been written on the fourheads of them.

I think it was all meant for us, but this thread is about Peter and the rock, not the end times.

 

[Anglian]

So, do we actually have any explanation as to why Christ changed Simon's name to Peter, which means the Rock? Are we retreating into 'well, it was private'? That's a little lame, surely?

Christ changed Peter's name to Rock and then spoke to him of a rock on which the Church would be founded, and some here see no connection at all? Again, a little on the unconvincing side - and I'm on that side of the argument.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

we are never told to look to Peter for our faith. We are to look at the head of the church Christ. For he alone is the Rock to our salvation. Peter knew this and this is what he proclaimed because the Father had revealed it to Peter as He has to me and to many others that have the Spirit of Christ in them..

 

[narnia59]

It would if your husand told you that He was the only one that knew the truth and that you had to follow what he taught. We see Paul Preached Christ, Peter preached Christ.. They did not ever state that they were the head. They never stated that they were the PAPA. So therefore We only have one Father. For those who belong to Christ are one in the Spirit.

Please provide a reference where any pope has ever said that they were the only one who knew the truth?

Have you ever read any papal encyclicals? Listened to the pope speak? I can pull out what he said while he was in the US. Perhaps you can point to something Pope Benedict said while here that wasn't preaching Christ? Something he's written?

Paul indeed preached Christ, but he also said this about Abraham:

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

And he said this about himself:

“I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. “For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ, just as I teach them everywhere in every church.”


Your belief that they did not claim spiritual fatherhood is contradicted by Scripture. To claim that spiritual fatherhood of an individual contradicts the Fatherhood of God is not scriptural.

 

[Anglian]

Of course Christ is the head of the Church, but once He had ascended into Heaven it needed a vicar, so to say. The Catholic claim is that the Petrine verses reveal who that was. The Catholics do not say we worship Peter or look to him for our faith; the claim to primacy for St. Peter's See is not a claim that we worship the Pope.

There is a false dichotomy here. What is being claimed is that Peter is, if you like, the steward for Christ the King, not a replacement for Him.

Again, are we saying it is just a coincidence that we have Simon renamed Rock and Christ saying 'on this rock'? Why the name change? To retreat into, we don't know, won't really do as a convincing position. Well, it doesn't convince me, and I'm on the 'he's not the rock' side of the argument. Any one addressing this question of the significance of the name change?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think it was all meant for us, but this thread is about Peter and the rock, not the end times.

Wasn't Peter and the 11 to sit on 12 thrones Judging Israel

Matthew 19:28 The yet JESUS said to them, "Amen I am saying to ye, that ye the ones-following to Me in the again-generation/paliggenesia <3824> whenever should be seating the Son of the Man upon a throne of glory of Him shall be sitting also/even ye on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of the Israel.

Reve 20:4 And I saw thrones and they are seated on them and judgement was given to them and the souls of the ones having been executed by the testimony of Jesus and by the Word of the God

 

[narnia59]

It is written for us. For we can see through scripture and the Holy Spirit as our teacher How personable Christ is with His people. Very uplifting to know that Jesus is that intimate with us.

Many ways to do that without renaming one of your apostles.

I believe that each act of Christ the writers of the Gospels chose to reveal to us, every word is important to what we are know and how we are to understand the Gospels. So searching for a reason why we should know and understand that Jesus actually changed Peter's name to rock is important in my view.

 

[narnia59]

Wasn't Peter and the 11 to sit on 12 thrones Judging Israel

Matthew 19:28 The yet JESUS said to them, "Amen I am saying to ye, that ye the ones-following to Me in the again-generation/paliggenesia <3824> whenever should be seating the Son of the Man upon a throne of glory of Him shall be sitting also/even ye on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of the Israel.

Reve 20:4 And I saw thrones and they are seated on them and judgement was given to them and the souls of the ones having been executed by the testimony of Jesus and by the Word of the God

Perhaps, but still not taking the dive into Revelation. Nice try though.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Narnia,

It will be interesting to see if you can find your thoughts about the earlier post.

I do think that it is clear there has always been more than one reading of the verses we are discussing, in this sense. Primacy has always been admitted (at least until the sixteenth century), but its meaning has varied, with the West coming to understand it as appertaining to authority in the form of jurisdiction, and the East as authority in the form of prestige and moral persuasion. Both John Paul the Great and Benedict XVI have written on this theme and stressed that the Pope is an elder among elders - which is just what St. Peter said in his first epistle.

It is finding our way to a shared understanding of primacy which is at issue between Orthodox and Catholics; and of that, I do not despair.

peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps, but still not taking the dive into Revelation. Nice try though.

What do you think Revelation is about

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes. 43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place. [Jeremiah 52:4]

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing of Her

 

[MamaZ]

Please provide a reference where any pope has ever said that they were the only one who knew the truth?

Have you ever read any papal encyclicals? Listened to the pope speak? I can pull out what he said while he was in the US. Perhaps you can point to something Pope Benedict said while here that wasn't preaching Christ? Something he's written?

Paul indeed preached Christ, but he also said this about Abraham:

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

And he said this about himself:

“I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. “For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ, just as I teach them everywhere in every church.”


Your belief that they did not claim spiritual fatherhood is contradicted by Scripture. To claim that spiritual fatherhood of an individual contradicts the Fatherhood of God is not scriptural.

I see what Paul said and one must understand the covenant. It was the covenant that God made with Abraham and the two wives and the Bond and the free. We have to read the whole intire context of scripture and allow scripture to interpret scripture. Paul was an Apostle appointed by Christ Himself to preach to the gentiles. These Aposltes were the ones that were sent and the very foundations of the church and its doctrine and teaching. Now that it has been recorded for all to see we have the True foundation. Christ, then the teaching of the Apostles. It has all been layed. We are the ones that have to be careful on how we build on these. For it is not men who teach us but the Holy Spirit. This was the very reason the Apostles were sent. We only have the 12 plus Paul. These are the only Apostles that have been called to set the teaching to which we are to be a pillar witness to.

 

[narnia59]

we are never told to look to Peter for our faith. We are to look at the head of the church Christ. For he alone is the Rock to our salvation. Peter knew this and this is what he proclaimed because the Father had revealed it to Peter as He has to me and to many others that have the Spirit of Christ in them..

You will find nothing Catholic that says we're supposed to look to Peter as the source of our faith. Now, looking to Peter and the other apostles in order to lead us and guide us in our faith ... pretty scriptural. Not a contradiction in seeing Christ as the head of the church and source of our faith at all, according to scripture at least.

Scripture says that we should remember our leaders and imitate their faith. And that we should obey them and submit to their authority.

Not that once we have been born again we have no need of men who are spiritual fathers and leaders. That position is not scriptural.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You will find nothing Catholic that says we're supposed to look to Peter as the source of our faith. Now, looking to Peter and the other apostles in order to lead us and guide us in our faith ... pretty scriptural. Not a contradiction in seeing Christ as the head of the church and source of our faith at all, according to scripture at least.

Peter here proclaims JESUS as the Chief Shepherd. Was He just the Chief Shepherd of the Jews or all those who come to the Faith of Him.

1Peter 5:4 And of being made manifest the Chief-Shepherd/arci-poimenoV <750>, ye shall be being requitted the unfading crown of the glory

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.