Peter Is Not The Rock!

[narnia59]

What is the RC position on the Unam Sanctam? That there is no salvation outside the Roman Pontiff?

That in order to understand the meaning of a papal document you have to consider the culture, language and intended audience and purpose of the document in order to accurately interpet its meaning.

Quite similar to how one must approach Scripture actually.

Yet people with agendas other than really wanting to understand its meaning take individual scriptures from the Bible out of their context and culture and intended audience and parade them around all the time in an effort to debunk the Bible while ignoring the intent of what it is saying. Just visit an atheist web site.

Nothing new here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

While translating the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation I generally look close at the greek words and I found this extremely interesting. The words "saul/paul" also comes from the greek word used for "court/fold" and the same wording used in Acts 7 is also used in Reve 11:2. I just noticed this today when looking up the greek words for "saul/paul". Pretty fascinating

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Acts 7:58 And they Casting-Out/ek-balonteV <1544> (5631) outside/exw <1854> of the City they had stone-casted him and the witnesses put off the garments of them beside the feet of a young-man being called Saul/saulou <4569>

Revelation 11:2 and the court/fold/aulhn<833>, the without of the Sanctuary, be thou Casting-Out!/ek-bale <1544> (5628) out-side/exw <1854>, and no her thou should be measuring,

 

[Anglian]

Dear Narnia, Dear Monica,

Thank you both for excellent and thoughtful posts. I take, entirely, Marnia's point about the timing of the change of name, and I do think that those of us arguing the other position on this need to address, in a manner more satisfactory than we have, the question of why Christ changed Peter's name. I am unimpressed by the arguments about the Aramaic, the NT we have is in Greek and the Greek is clear. In any case, if one is seriously arguing that Peter's name meant 'little pebble' why did Our Lord use the same word to refer to the rock and to Peter?

It seems more sensible to admit that the ECFs accord St. Peter a primacy of honour - but that there is much disagreement about whether that meant that an office was created, or that, if it was, that office devolved to the bishops of Rome. Over time, the differing traditions took two routes, and both can quote from the same ECFs and interpret the same verses in different ways. It seems equally sensible to admit that both readings have strong support, and positively obvious that neither party is going to admit the other one is correct - simply because there is no one 'correct' meaning in tradition or Scripture itself.

That means the question resolves itself into one of whether the reasons which led the West to accept Papal Primacy still obtain. At one level the answer is no, since the West itself is no longer united, and the Papacy has therefore ceased to be a unifying office. At another level I am less sure of the answer. With people claiming to be Christians who deny the Nicene Creed and even the divinity of Our Lord, and with the forces of aggressive secularism and Islam rampant, the idea that there is no function for a bishop to act as an arbiter (alongside his fellows) to pronounce on what is an is not orthodox, and to act as a focus of unity, seems incorrect.

What needs to change is the attitude on both sides. Indeed, in what Pope Benedict writes there are clear signs of a Pope who sees himself as a kind of Christian CEO, working with his fellow bishops. But, such is the visceral distrust in some Protestant and Orthodox circles that I am not even sure they are listening.

What is certain is that whatever one thinks about orthodox teaching, there is only one Church with a truly catholic reach - and that is the Church at whose head is the bishop of Rome. Some response from other quarters to Pope Benedict's initiatives would be good - especially if it were positive.

peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What needs to change is the attitude on both sides. Indeed, in what Pope Benedict writes there are clear signs of a Pope who sees himself as a kind of Christian CEO, working with his fellow bishops. But, such is the visceral distrust in some Protestant and Orthodox circles that I am not even sure they are listening.

Greetings Anglian. It would also be nice if all 3 could come to One view on the book of Revelation

Luke 12:49 Fire I came to be casting upon the Land and any I am willing if already it was kindled.

Revelation 8:5 And has taken, the messenger, the franckincensor, and he crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar. And he casts it into the Land and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking [Revelation 18:18]

Reve 20:9 And they ascended on the breadth of the Land and they surround the Camp of the Saints and the City, the having been loved. And descended Fire from the God out of the Heaven and it devoured them.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Dear Narnia, Dear Monica,

Thank you both for excellent and thoughtful posts. I take, entirely, Marnia's point about the timing of the change of name, and I do think that those of us arguing the other position on this need to address, in a manner more satisfactory than we have, the question of why Christ changed Peter's name. I am unimpressed by the arguments about the Aramaic, the NT we have is in Greek and the Greek is clear. In any case, if one is seriously arguing that Peter's name meant 'little pebble' why did Our Lord use the same word to refer to the rock and to Peter?

It seems more sensible to admit that the ECFs accord St. Peter a primacy of honour - but that there is much disagreement about whether that meant that an office was created, or that, if it was, that office devolved to the bishops of Rome. Over time, the differing traditions took two routes, and both can quote from the same ECFs and interpret the same verses in different ways. It seems equally sensible to admit that both readings have strong support, and positively obvious that neither party is going to admit the other one is correct - simply because there is no one 'correct' meaning in tradition or Scripture itself.

That means the question resolves itself into one of whether the reasons which led the West to accept Papal Primacy still obtain. At one level the answer is no, since the West itself is no longer united, and the Papacy has therefore ceased to be a unifying office. At another level I am less sure of the answer. With people claiming to be Christians who deny the Nicene Creed and even the divinity of Our Lord, and with the forces of aggressive secularism and Islam rampant, the idea that there is no function for a bishop to act as an arbiter (alongside his fellows) to pronounce on what is an is not orthodox, and to act as a focus of unity, seems incorrect.

What needs to change is the attitude on both sides. Indeed, in what Pope Benedict writes there are clear signs of a Pope who sees himself as a kind of Christian CEO, working with his fellow bishops. But, such is the visceral distrust in some Protestant and Orthodox circles that I am not even sure they are listening.

What is certain is that whatever one thinks about orthodox teaching, there is only one Church with a truly catholic reach - and that is the Church at whose head is the bishop of Rome. Some response from other quarters to Pope Benedict's initiatives would be good - especially if it were positive.

peace,

Anglian

There is nobody on The Orthodox Christian side of the argument who can answer for all Orthodox Churches. That's not how we function.

Take for instance, HIS GRACE BP. BARTHOLOMEW... should he decide to join with Pope Benedict's efforts, he will have done nothing more than become a member of The Church of Rome and would no longer hold any position in The Orthodox Church, indeed he would no longer be Orthodox.

For us, the Bishops are the servant of The Church, they have no authority to make changes on their own. Changes of the magnitude you are suggesting would have to begin with a council to present the matter, all Orthodox Christinians everywhere past and present agreeing on it and everyone pronouncing it as "AXIOS". This would be impossible. Councils of the past, which have already stood the test of time and been declared Ecumenical by all Churches everywhere have already made declarations on these matters. Christ's Church does not change. There is simply no way around it. It has always been done this way and will not change inside the framework of Orthodoxy.

I'm not trying to be hard-headed. Just hoping to explain that it can not and will not happen by any capitulation on the part of The Orthodox Churches. The ONLY way these Churches will ever unite is if the Church who has changed, changes again back to it's previous status.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation shows 7 Messengers blowing 7 Trumpets. Matthew is the only one of the Gospel writers to mention Trumpet. And look at the ones who blew the Trumpets in Joshua 6.

Joshua 6:4 And seven Priests shall bear seven trumpets of the jubilees to-faces of the ark, and in Day the seventh ye shall compass the City seven of times/06471 pa`am, and the Priests shall blow in trumpets/07782 showphar, ...........

Joel 2:1 Blow ye a Trumpet in Tsiyown, and shout ye! in mountain of holiness of Me. All of the inhabitants of the land shall be trembled, that coming Day of YHWH, that nigh-at-hand!

Revelation 8:6 And the seven Messengers having the seven Trumpets make ready themselves, that they-should-be-trumpeting ;

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Greetings Anglian. It would also be nice if all 3 could come to One view on the book of Revelation

Luke 12:49 Fire I came to be casting upon the Land and any I am willing if already it was kindled.

Revelation 8:5 And has taken, the messenger, the franckincensor, and he crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar. And he casts it into the Land and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking [Revelation 18:18]

Reve 20:9 And they ascended on the breadth of the Land and they surround the Camp of the Saints and the City, the having been loved. And descended Fire from the God out of the Heaven and it devoured them.

The Orthodox have a very simple view of Revelation.

What is going to happen is going to happen. We are to continue worshiping and not worry about the future. If we spend time and energy attempting to unravel the mysteries (which we are doomed to get wrong anyway) then we will have wasted the time we were given to repent.

The evil one loves the amount of time wasted in vanity.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Orthodox have a very simple view of Revelation.

What is going to happen is going to happen. We are to continue worshiping and not worry about the future. If we spend time and energy attempting to unravel the mysteries (which we are doomed to get wrong anyway) then we will have wasted the time we were given to repent.

The evil one loves the amount of time wasted in vanity.

Forgive me...

Greetings. Revelation concerns past, present, future and ongoing thru the ages of ages.
When reading thru the OT/OC I would always see a reference to the Day of the Lord being "nigh at hand".

YHWH is outside of space and Time so I read the Bible as fulfilled for "ME" and why I also do not dwell on Raptures and Endtimes.
Revelation is the Final Consummation promised by YHWH both to the Hebrew Israelites/Jews and ALL Mankind.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye a Trumpet in Tsiyown, and shout ye! in mountain of holiness of Me. All of the inhabitants of the land shall be trembled, that coming a Day of YHWH, that Nigh-at-hand!/07138 qarowb

07138 qarowb {kaw-robe'} or qarob {kaw-robe'} from 07126; TWOT - 2065d; adj
AV - near 35, nigh 13, at hand 6, neighbour 5, next 5, kin 3, near (in place, kindred or time):--allied, approach, at hand, + any of kin, kinsfold(-sman), (that is) near (of kin), neighbour, (that is) next, (them that come) nigh (at hand), more ready, short(-ly).

Revelation 1:3 Blessed the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the Time Is-Nigh/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this. That the Time Is-Nigh/egguV <1451>

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

 

[MamaZ]

The rock that Jesus builds His church on is the very fact that He is the Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

The Orthodox have a very simple view of Revelation.

What is going to happen is going to happen. We are to continue worshiping and not worry about the future. If we spend time and energy attempting to unravel the mysteries (which we are doomed to get wrong anyway) then we will have wasted the time we were given to repent.

The evil one loves the amount of time wasted in vanity.

Forgive me...

You say vanity Scripture says blessings.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You say vanity Scripture says blessings.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Greetings. That Hebrew word #7138 and greek word #1451 is about as close to being near as almost being inside it. Notice how that form of it is used in Mark and Luke.

Mark 1:15 And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Kingdom of the God. Be ye reforming!, and be ye believing! in the Good-Message."

Luke 21:31 "Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing These-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

07138 qarowb {kaw-robe'} or qarob {kaw-robe'} from 07126; TWOT - 2065d; adj
AV - near 35, nigh 13, at hand 6, neighbour 5, next 5, kin 3, near (in place, kindred or time):--allied, approach, at hand, + any of kin, kinsfold(-sman), (that is) near (of kin), neighbour, (that is) next, (them that come) nigh (at hand), more ready, short(-ly).

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

 

[MamaZ]

Greetings. That Hebrew word #7138 and greek word #1451 is about as close to being near as almost being inside it. Notice how that form of it is used in Mark and Luke.

Mark 1:15 And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Kingdom of the God. Be ye reforming!, and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

Luke 21:31 Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing These-things becoming ye are knowing that nigh/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

07138 qarowb {kaw-robe'} or qarob {kaw-robe'} from 07126; TWOT - 2065d; adj
AV - near 35, nigh 13, at hand 6, neighbour 5, next 5, kin 3, near (in place, kindred or time):--allied, approach, at hand, + any of kin, kinsfold(-sman), (that is) near (of kin), neighbour, (that is) next, (them that come) nigh (at hand), more ready, short(-ly).

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The rock that Jesus builds His church on is the very fact that He is the Christ.

It seems "nathanael" exclaimed it first in John 1:49

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

NKJV) John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

NASB) John 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

Textus Rec.) John 1:49 apekriqh naqanahl kai legei autw rabbi su ei o uioV tou qeou su ei o basileuV tou israhl

W-H ) John 1:49 apekriqh autw naqanahl *** ***** ***** rabbi su ei o uioV tou qeou su ** * basileuV ei tou israhl

Byz./Maj.) John 1:49 apekriqh naqanahl kai legei autw rabbi su ei o uioV tou qeou su ei o basileuV tou israhl

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You say vanity Scripture says blessings.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

I don't mean to discredit the reading and study of it per se... Just that we should not let it become the entire focus of our Christian walk. Which is the problem with many Christian communities, they are totally focused on Revelation and skip any actual worship.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't mean to discredit the reading and study of it per se... Just that we should not let it become the entire focus of our Christian walk. Which is the problem with many Christian communities, they are totally focused on Revelation and skip any actual worship.

Forgive me...

That depends on how one focuses on it. I mainly use the OT books of Exodus and Joshua to study it. Why would they be singing the "Song of Moses" for example

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 19:20 and the Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the Song of the Lamb-kin saying: "Great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty. Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints [*ages/*nations].

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.
2 My might and melody is Yah, and He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '
21 And Miriam is responding to them: "Sing ye to YHWH that to be triumphant He is triumphant Horse and his rider He heaved into Sea.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Notice the Horse and Rider in Reve 6:8. The one sitting upon the horse is named "the Death" and the "Hades" is following behind them.

Reve 6:8 And I saw and behold! a horse, green, and the one sitting upon him, a name to him, *the Death, and the Hades followed with him. And was given to them authority upon the fourth of the land, to-kill in sword and in famine and in death and over the wild-beasts of the land.

Reve 19:20 and the Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What I find so fascinating with the Bible is how everything seems to just fit like a glove.
The event in Exodus symbolized a release from BONDAGE of the Egyptians. The events in Joshua symbolized being VICTORIOUS/CONQUERING enemy Nations.

I just put myself back in time with the OC Hebrew Isaelites and the more I did that, the more I put myself also in Revelation. The Bible is truly the Greatest BOOK in the world.

Reve 19:20 and the Wild-Beast was taken, and with him the False-Prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were Cast--the two--to the Lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.

Joshua 6:4 And seven Priests shall bear the seven trumpets of the jubilees/03104 yowbel before the ark/coffer/0727 'arown, and in Day the seventh ye shall compass the city seven of times, and the Priests shall blow in trumpets/07782 showphar .

Revelation 8:6 And the seven messengers having the seven trumpets make ready themselves, that they-should-be-trumpeting;

 

[OOHOOHAH]

Oh and thats me engulfed in the flames in your avatar.
Wait, or is it you...
This whole monkey/man thing gets me CONFUSED...
Uber mensch can make war with the beast!
Oh no wait!!!
CODE BLUE CODE BLUE!!!
i'm going into cardiac arrest!
NNNNNNNNNNHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGG

ZOMG THEY KILLED KENNY!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh and thats me engulfed in the flames in your avatar.
Wait, or is it you...This whole monkey/man thing gets me CONFUSED...
Uber mensch can make war with the beast!
Oh no wait!!!
CODE BLUE CODE BLUE!!! i'm going into cardiac arrest!
NNNNNNNNNNHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGG
ZOMG THEY KILLED KENNY!!!

Our God is a Jealous God.

Ezekiel 38:22 "And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [Revelation 16:21 and 20:9]

Luke 12:49 Fire I came to be casting upon the Land and any I am willing if already it was kindled.

Reve 20:9 And they ascended upon the breadth of the land and surround the camp of the Saints and the City, the beloved and descended fire out of the heaven [*from the God] and it devoured them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCClFi-dQFk&feature=related

 

[narnia59]

There is nobody on The Orthodox Christian side of the argument who can answer for all Orthodox Churches. That's not how we function.

Take for instance, HIS GRACE BP. BARTHOLOMEW... should he decide to join with Pope Benedict's efforts, he will have done nothing more than become a member of The Church of Rome and would no longer hold any position in The Orthodox Church, indeed he would no longer be Orthodox.

For us, the Bishops are the servant of The Church, they have no authority to make changes on their own. Changes of the magnitude you are suggesting would have to begin with a council to present the matter, all Orthodox Christinians everywhere past and present agreeing on it and everyone pronouncing it as "AXIOS". This would be impossible. Councils of the past, which have already stood the test of time and been declared Ecumenical by all Churches everywhere have already made declarations on these matters. Christ's Church does not change. There is simply no way around it. It has always been done this way and will not change inside the framework of Orthodoxy.

I'm not trying to be hard-headed. Just hoping to explain that it can not and will not happen by any capitulation on the part of The Orthodox Churches. The ONLY way these Churches will ever unite is if the Church who has changed, changes again back to it's previous status.

Forgive me...

Can you explain the red a little better? Are you saying every individual person who is Orthodox must agree? And what is meant by 'past and present'?