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Peter Is Not The Rock!

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sunlover1

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To be perfectly honest, I did think what you've written was a cheap shot. It is also ill-advised. To take on a 13-year-old who has already expressed anger for Catholic provocation is something I can't understand. What can possibly be your motive? Was it prudent, what you did?

The danger of posting on the forum is we sometimes want to score points against others without thinking of the consequence of our actions. It's always good to be prayerful before we shoot off a post. And we should consider what effect our post can have. I can understand indiscretion among those who are very young but I expect adults to be more responsible.

I beg your forgiveness if I have taken a liberty I shouldn't have but I was speaking from the heart.
WOW :hug:
You make a good point, and if I may butt in (sorry, bad habit)
we should ALL learn from this attitude of Cardinalsin's (though
I do NOT get what that name is about guy)
WE all get silly and rude around here. So for my part, please
forgive me anyone whom I've offended or acted bossy and
pompous to. I was bad.
:blush:
I love y'all :kiss:
 
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beamishboy

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Yeah, but don't forget Trento can cut & paste a gaggle of nominaly Protestant scholars who have surrendered the point, and Protestants aren't ecclesiologicaly monolithic in their temporal institutions.:cool:

I usually ignore his cut-and-paste posts anyway. Hehe.
 
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Anglian

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Earlier in this thread Bill Webster's excellent study of the Fathers was cited at length to show the context in which the usual Catholic ECF quotations should be placed. That shows that whilst there were those who read the Petrine verses as they are now read, there were many who did not.

For the Orthodox the place to begin would be with the Apostolical Canons which most scholars accept as representative of early canon law within the Church. We would rest on canons XXXIII and XXXIV:

Canon XXXIV. (XXXV.)

The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish, and the country places which belong to it. But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit.

Canon XXXV. (XXXVI.)

Let not a bishop dare to ordain beyond his own limits, in cities and places not subject to him. But if he be convicted of doing so, without the consent of those persons who have authority over such cities and places, let him be deposed, and those also whom he has ordained. (Schaff, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, 2nd series, vol. XIV, Grand Rapids, Michigan).

The same line is maintained in Canon 6 of Nicaea:
Canon 6: "Let the ancient customs prevail which were in vogue in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, to allow the Bishop of Alexandria to have authority over all these parts, since this is also the treatment usually accorded to the Bishop of Rome. Likewise with reference to Antioch, and in other provinces, let the seniority be preserved to the Churches."

An equality of all the ancient Apostolic Sees is confirmed by this Canon. There is no mention of Rome, though it may already have been viewed as "first among equals", as being the "Universal See" with which all other Sees need to be in communion. A the very least the canon law as we can retrieve it of the early Church contains no mention of Roman primacy. The same is true of the Apostolic Fathers.

If we start with Clement’s letters, the first thing to note is that although the Catholic quotation lists call him Pope Clement, this is not the unequivocal tradition of the Church. Origen and Eusebius (Commentary on St. John; Ecc. Hist. 3.4.15, respectively) state that he was the companion of St. Paul mentioned in Philippians 4:3. Tertullian (Prescription 32) says Clement was the second Pope; Irenaeus (who of course does not have St. Peter as the first Pope at all) has him as the third Pope following Linus and Anacletus.

One of the problems with asserting that this Clement is the bishop of Rome, and resting upon this letter the argument that it illustrates the authority of the early bishops of Rome is that nowhere in the letter does Clement say who he is or that he is writing ,as bishop of Rome. The author of the Shepherd of Hermas who was also from Rome, nowhere mentions a bishop of Rome, and the assertion that the Clement he mentions is the same Clement as the author of the letters is simply that; there is no proof it is the same person, and even if there were, there is none that Clement is a bishop of Rome, nor any that he claims universal authority. Indeed, in chapter 44 of 1 Clement he uses the terms ‘presbyter’ and ‘bishop’ interchangeably, which does not suggest a clear distinction between the two offices was recognised. Ignatius manages to write to Rome without giving any impression that there is a single bishop in charge.

So, from the Orthodox point of view, this letter does not get to first base as evidence that the bishops of Rome held power over other Churches. At best it is evidence that the Church of Rome thought it had the right to admonish another Church. We do not, of course, have any response to it or know whether that claim was accepted. But there is, at the least, no evidence it is from a bishop of Rome. Clement himself sets out no theological claim to personal authority, just as he does not claim to be writing as the bishop of Rome. If we look at chapters 42 and 44, we see claims that have nothing to do with any exclusive rights of the bishop of Rome. He tells us that Christ appointed the Apostles, who appointed the leaders of the Churches, who then picked their successors. His argument to the Corinthians is that since the deposed presbyters were appointed by leaders appointed by the Apostles, to oppose them is to oppose those selected by those who had been chosen by Christ. There is no suggestion of any exclusive authority for the bishop of Rome.

If we move on to Ignatius, no one could deny that he attributes primacy to the Roman Church in the 'region of the Romans’, but it is hard to see how this is an argument for Rome’s jurisdiction outside that area. Origen (Hom. 6 in Luke) and Eusebius (Ecc. Hist. 3.22.36) have him as the second or third bishop of Antioch after St. Peter and, of course, Antioch never makes any claims based on Peter's time as bishop there). In his Epistle, St. Ignatius refers to the Roman Church as worthy of ‘God, worthy of honour, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of holiness, and pre-eminent in love’; that’s a long list, but it doesn’t include ‘preeminent in authority’; neither is there mention of the Pope. His letter refers (6) to the ‘brothers’ but never to one single bishop. He does not adopt a different tone here from that in his other letters. So I am not seeing in either of these Fathers anything that would make me even think there was a single bishop of Rome at this early stage, let along that such a person was claiming jurisdiction over other Churches


None of this is to deny that Rome's understanding of the Petrine verses developed as it did; it is to say that that understanding was far from universal in the early Church. In fact, there are Catholic historians, such as Professor Duffy of Cambridge, who understand this and still have no problem because they describe how the understanding developed, and why it did so.

In a West under threat of heresy from one side, and from pagan barbarians on most sides, it is hardly surprising that the fifth century saw Leo the Great interpret Matthew 16-18 as he did. Had there not been a unifying focus during the next few hundred years, Western Christendom might have been lost - and there would have been no Christianity to have been exported to the Americas.

Peace,

Anglian


 
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narnia59

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Quite honestly no Church other than The Church of Rome says that it refers to Peter himself.

Forgive me...
Quite honestly, that is not true, at least not in terms of Bible studies and commentaries that are not Catholic.

From the NIV Life Application Study Bible (Protestant)

The rock on which Jesus would build his church has been identified as:

1) Jesus himself (his work of salvation by dying for us on the corss);
2) Peter (the first great leader in the church at Jerusalem);
3) the confession of faith that Peter gave and that all subsequent true belivers would give.

It seems most likely that the rock refers to Peter as the leader of the chruch. Just as Peter had revealed the true identity of Christ, so Jesus revealed Peter's identify and role.

And there would be other prominent Protestant Bible scholars who would agree.
 
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beamishboy

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Hey beamer, it's 5:28pm here on The Prairie where the Platte River meets The Mighty Missouri River.

Where in the BI are ya, & isn't it about 11:30pm there?

Hi Rick Otto,

The beamishboy doesn't go to bed until it's way past midnight. Hehe, you spoke like a Red Indian Chief - the way you described a place; I recall reading something like this in a comic book once.
 
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visionary

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Quite honestly, that is not true, at least not in terms of Bible studies and commentaries that are not Catholic.

From the NIV Life Application Study Bible (Protestant)

The rock on which Jesus would build his church has been identified as:

1) Jesus himself (his work of salvation by dying for us on the corss);
2) Peter (the first great leader in the church at Jerusalem);
3) the confession of faith that Peter gave and that all subsequent true belivers would give.

It seems most likely that the rock refers to Peter as the leader of the chruch. Just as Peter had revealed the true identity of Christ, so Jesus revealed Peter's identify and role.

And there would be other prominent Protestant Bible scholars who would agree.
Inthat they are wrong.. since James the brother of Yeshua was the leader in the church at Jerusalem.
 
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beamishboy

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Earlier in this thread Bill Webster's excellent study of the Fathers was cited at length to show the context in which the usual Catholic ECF quotations should be placed. That shows that whilst there were those who read the Petrine verses as they are now read, there were many who did not.

For the Orthodox the place to begin would be with the Apostolical Canons which most scholars accept as representative of early canon law within the Church. We would rest on canons XXXIII and XXXIV:



The same line is maintained in Canon 6 of Nicaea:


An equality of all the ancient Apostolic Sees is confirmed by this Canon. There is no mention of Rome, though it may already have been viewed as "first among equals", as being the "Universal See" with which all other Sees need to be in communion. A the very least the canon law as we can retrieve it of the early Church contains no mention of Roman primacy. The same is true of the Apostolic Fathers.

If we start with Clement’s letters, the first thing to note is that although the Catholic quotation lists call him Pope Clement, this is not the unequivocal tradition of the Church. Origen and Eusebius (Commentary on St. John; Ecc. Hist. 3.4.15, respectively) state that he was the companion of St. Paul mentioned in Philippians 4:3. Tertullian (Prescription 32) says Clement was the second Pope; Irenaeus (who of course does not have St. Peter as the first Pope at all) has him as the third Pope following Linus and Anacletus.

One of the problems with asserting that this Clement is the bishop of Rome, and resting upon this letter the argument that it illustrates the authority of the early bishops of Rome is that nowhere in the letter does Clement say who he is or that he is writing ,as bishop of Rome. The author of the Shepherd of Hermas who was also from Rome, nowhere mentions a bishop of Rome, and the assertion that the Clement he mentions is the same Clement as the author of the letters is simply that; there is no proof it is the same person, and even if there were, there is none that Clement is a bishop of Rome, nor any that he claims universal authority. Indeed, in chapter 44 of 1 Clement he uses the terms ‘presbyter’ and ‘bishop’ interchangeably, which does not suggest a clear distinction between the two offices was recognised. Ignatius manages to write to Rome without giving any impression that there is a single bishop in charge.

So, from the Orthodox point of view, this letter does not get to first base as evidence that the bishops of Rome held power over other Churches. At best it is evidence that the Church of Rome thought it had the right to admonish another Church. We do not, of course, have any response to it or know whether that claim was accepted. But there is, at the least, no evidence it is from a bishop of Rome. Clement himself sets out no theological claim to personal authority, just as he does not claim to be writing as the bishop of Rome. If we look at chapters 42 and 44, we see claims that have nothing to do with any exclusive rights of the bishop of Rome. He tells us that Christ appointed the Apostles, who appointed the leaders of the Churches, who then picked their successors. His argument to the Corinthians is that since the deposed presbyters were appointed by leaders appointed by the Apostles, to oppose them is to oppose those selected by those who had been chosen by Christ. There is no suggestion of any exclusive authority for the bishop of Rome.

If we move on to Ignatius, no one could deny that he attributes primacy to the Roman Church in the 'region of the Romans’, but it is hard to see how this is an argument for Rome’s jurisdiction outside that area. Origen (Hom. 6 in Luke) and Eusebius (Ecc. Hist. 3.22.36) have him as the second or third bishop of Antioch after St. Peter and, of course, Antioch never makes any claims based on Peter's time as bishop there). In his Epistle, St. Ignatius refers to the Roman Church as worthy of ‘God, worthy of honour, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of holiness, and pre-eminent in love’; that’s a long list, but it doesn’t include ‘preeminent in authority’; neither is there mention of the Pope. His letter refers (6) to the ‘brothers’ but never to one single bishop. He does not adopt a different tone here from that in his other letters. So I am not seeing in either of these Fathers anything that would make me even think there was a single bishop of Rome at this early stage, let along that such a person was claiming jurisdiction over other Churches


None of this is to deny that Rome's understanding of the Petrine verses developed as it did; it is to say that that understanding was far from universal in the early Church. In fact, there are Catholic historians, such as Professor Duffy of Cambridge, who understand this and still have no problem because they describe how the understanding developed, and why it did so.

In a West under threat of heresy from one side, and from pagan barbarians on most sides, it is hardly surprising that the fifth century saw Leo the Great interpret Matthew 16-18 as he did. Had there not been a unifying focus during the next few hundred years, Western Christendom might have been lost - and there would have been no Christianity to have been exported to the Americas.

Peace,

Anglian



Cool! Good post!!! I'm keeping a copy of this in pdf format for future reference.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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One of the problems with asserting that this Clement is the bishop of Rome, and resting upon this letter the argument that it illustrates the authority of the early bishops of Rome is that nowhere in the letter does Clement say who he is or that he is writing ,as bishop of Rome.
Greetings Anglian and thanks for that great post!!!! :kiss:
If the "clement" mentioned in Phil 4:3 is so important, why would he be mentioned just one time. And remember I put up a thread concerning the greek wording of that name.
A lot of english words are usually as a result of how it looks in the translaterated greek of which I can provide hundreds of examples.

And why does the lexicon show it to be of LATIN origin?
I remain Solo Scriptura in Christ. :D

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265052&page=4
The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3

Phili 4:3 Yea I am asking also thee together-yoke! genuine! be thou helping them who-any in the Well-Message together-complete to-me with also/and clement/klh-mentoV <2815> and of the rests together-workers of me of whom the names in scroll of life.

klh-mentoV <2815>

2815. Klemes klay'-mace of Latin origin; merciful; Clemes (i.e. Clemens), a Christian:--Clement.
 
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narnia59

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Inthat they are wrong.. since James the brother of Yeshua was the leader in the church at Jerusalem.
Interesting in how there can be many different teachings with each claiming the other is wrong with sola-scriptura, isn't it? :scratch:
 
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visionary

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Interesting in how there can be many different teachings with each claiming the other is wrong with sola-scriptura, isn't it? :scratch:

James the brother of our Lord (Matthew 13:35; Mark 6:3; Galatians 1:18, 19). Jesus had three other brothers in addition to James. They were Joses, Simon and Judas (Matthew 13:55).

James, play a prominent role in the Jerusalem church (Acts 1:14). According to Paul, an inspired apostle, Jesus appeared to James following his resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:7). James became a leading figure in the church at Jerusalem.

When Peter was released from prison he came to the house of Mary where many in the church had come together to pray for him (Acts 12:12). According to Peter's account of that evening, the Lord had instructed him to tell James and the brethren of his prison escape, which Peter then did (Acts 12:17).

When the controversy arose over certain Judaizers who were demanding the circumcision of Gentle Christians, Paul and Barnabas met in Jerusalem with the apostles and elders, and James played a significant role in that meeting (Acts 15:13-21). It was James who reminded them of Peter's encounter with Cornelius and how the Gentiles were to be brought into the kingdom. He further argued that this was in agreement with what the prophets had predicted. He then recommended they write a letter to Gentile churches in which they would be told to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" (Acts 15:20). The apostles, elders and the whole church agreed, and it was done.

Following Paul's third missionary tour, he returned to Jerusalem. One day after his arrival in the city he reported to James and the elders what God had accomplished through him among the Gentiles (Acts 21:18-25). It is not surprising that James is again singled out among those in the church at Jerusalem. It was Paul who referred to James, along with Peter and John, as pillars in the church who had extended to him and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, and encouraged their work among the Gentiles (Galatians 2:9-10).

According to Josephus, the high priest, Ananus (his father was also called Ananus), a man bold in temperament and very indolent, convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man called James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned (Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, page 598).
 
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beamishboy

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Interesting in how there can be many different teachings with each claiming the other is wrong with sola-scriptura, isn't it? :scratch:

As Anglian has just shown a few posts above and as Simonthezealot has always shown in thousands of posts including the formal debate he had with MrPolo, Rome's claim to universal authority is without the flimsiest foundation. The current thread has nothing to do with sola scriptura, so please address the issue at hand. In other words, don't change the subject.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by visionary Inthat they are wrong.. since James the brother of Yeshua was the leader in the church at Jerusalem.
Yeah, Herod wasn't too excited about him either.
That greek word used for killing is interesting and of course Herod killed the boys in Matt 21.

337. anaireo an-ahee-reh'-o from 303 and (the active of) 138; to take up, i.e. adopt; by implication, to take away (violently), i.e. abolish, murder:--put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up

Acts 12:1 According to a day yet the time/season/kairon <2540>, put-forth Herod the King the hands to ill-treat some of the ones from the assemblies 2 He assasinated/aneilen <337> (5627) yet James, the brother of John, to sword.

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod seeing that he was sported/mocked by the magi was exceedingly furious and dispatching assasinated/aneilen <337> (5627) all the boys the in Bethlehem and in all the boundaries of her from two years and below according to the time/cronon <5550> which he exactly inquired beside the magi.

Hebrew 10:9 Then He has declared behold! I am arriving of the to do the God the will of Thee. He is taking-way/anairei <337> (5719) the first that the second He should be establishing.
 
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narnia59

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So I am curious. In the view of those who believe that Jesus did not mean Peter was the rock, what word would the translators have used for Peter instead of 'petros' if he did in fact mean Peter was the rock? You are __?_____ and upon this petra I will build my church?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So I am curious. In the view of those who believe that Jesus did not mean Peter was the rock, what word would the translators have used for Peter instead of 'petros'? You are __?_____ and upon this petra I will build my church?
It would have to read "thou art peter and upon this, the peter.....":) Sounds kind of, ummm, "awkward" :D

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this, the rock I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her

Textus Rec.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV
 
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narnia59

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It would have to read "thou art peter and upon this, the peter.....":) Sounds kind of, ummm, "awkward" :D

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this, the rock I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her

Textus Rec.) Matthew 16:18 kagw de soi legw oti su ei petroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian kai pulai adou ou katiscusousin authV
So you're saying he would have said that he was going to build his church on a pebble if had meant Peter was the rock?
 
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narnia59

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We know from John's gospel that the name Jesus actually gave to Peter was the Aramaic Cephas (which means rock).

So it comes down to what was the Greek translator in Matthew's gospel trying to convey.

If his intent was to convey there was no difference between the two, seems like he couldn't have said "You are petros and upon this petros I would build my church", because according to the view of those that petros refers to a little pebble, it wouldn't have been much of a church.

It seems that leaves us with the translator would have had to say "You are petra and upon this petra I will build my church", and also translated the Aramaic rock (Cephas) to Petra in Greek.

Does that about sum it up?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So you're saying he would have said that he was going to build his church on a pebble if had meant Peter was the rock?
I am still learning the greek and I generally do my translations in the same order as shown in the greek. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but the authors generally wrote that way for a reason.

For example, the predicate here in Matt 21:21 is used after the Mountain instead of before it. Why, I know not. :sorry:

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this/toutw <5129>, ye may saying, 'Be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Textus Rec.) Matthew 21:21 apokriqeiV de o ihsouV eipen autoiV amhn legw umin ean echte pistin kai mh diakriqhte ou monon to thV sukhV poihsete alla kan tw orei toutw eiphte arqhti kai blhqhti eiV thn qalassan genhsetai
 
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