Peter Enn's lecture on Adam

[Assyrian]

An invisible elephant?

a literal one ... who became a metaphor

 

[RefCath]

Peter Enn is wrong because he does not agree with Paul.

Let's try to tease this out a bit. What you are saying here is a conclusion built upon premises similar to the following:

1. You say Paul means x
2. You say Enns teaches y
3. You say x does not equal y
4. Therefore you say Enns disagrees with Paul.

The basic issue then is your interpretation of Paul closely followed by your interpretation of Enns.

It then further complicates when we recognise that your assessment will be determined by what you believe inspiration implies

 

[Walter Kovacs]

a literal one ... who became a metaphor

Do you interpret that metaphor literally? Because if not, your liberal theology is showing...

 

[Siyha]

Breaking news!

Timothy Keller is a liberal now!

http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/Keller_white_paper.pdf

 

[shernren]

The incarnation is not a mystery, it's redemptive history. He denies that Paul speaks authoritatively ...
If he believes in anything remotely Biblical I have yet to see it.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory. (1Tim 3:16, ESV)
​

Yeah, someone's clearly denying Paul, but I'm not sure it's Peter Enns.

 

[shernren]

Hippo? Elephant? Are you guys talking about Leviathan again?

No, I believe this has to do with Behemoth.

 

[shernren]

Breaking news!

Timothy Keller is a liberal now!

http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/Keller_white_paper.pdf

Meh, all non-Ken-Ham Christians have been liberals for a decade or two now. Where have you been?

 

[Siyha]

So if I understand where this thread has landed correctly, Peter Enns has a Behemoth and Augustine debated at circuses?

 

[crawfish]

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory. (1Tim 3:16, ESV)
​

Yeah, someone's clearly denying Paul, but I'm not sure it's Peter Enns.

Paul's strongest words were saved for those who pushed a "grace-plus" theology. Grace + circumcision. Grace + abstaining. Grace + culture. What Ken Ham (and Mark) is saying is nothing more than a continuation of this trend.

I know who is refusing to listen to Paul.

 

[Assyrian]

and Augustine debated at circuses?

Was his pen mightier than the gladius?

 

[shernren]

Was his pen mightier than the gladius?

I hear his quill was as stiff as a cedar.

 

[Assyrian]

I hear his quill was as stiff as a cedar.

 

[mark kennedy]

Paul's strongest words were saved for those who pushed a "grace-plus" theology. Grace + circumcision. Grace + abstaining. Grace + culture. What Ken Ham (and Mark) is saying is nothing more than a continuation of this trend.

Paul's strongest words were for those who would add the Mosaic law or make grace a license to sin.

"Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved." (Rom. 3:8)

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law...

... As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (Gal. 5:1-3, 12)​

I have debated Justification by faith through grace in a formal debate with a Catholic university student. I do not just argue against these endless evolutionary excursions into scorn and bad satire, I defend the clear teachings of the Scriptures where I find arguments that are contrary to sound doctrine. The working definition is 'unmerited favor' but it really doesn't do the real meaning justice. Grace breaks the will with a love that while we were yet sinners Christ died for our sins. That's what I believe about the Pauline gospel, what do you believe?

I know who is refusing to listen to Paul.

I know who is refusing to listen to Paul and Moses, it's Peter Enn. He clearly states that Paul believed Adam to be the first man and Peter Enn calls this 'retextualization'. That tells me that he understands what Paul is saying about Adam in no uncertain terms.

I know who is refusing to believe the clear testimony of Scripture. Liberal theologians make this abundantly clear.

 

[philadiddle]

I know who is refusing to believe the clear testimony of Scripture. Liberal theologians make this abundantly clear.

You could always try addressing the reasoning behind what theologians do, instead of just throwing the word "liberal" around like it means their life's work doesn't count for anything.

Of course, the false god of the creation doctrine is more important to some people than using the intelligence that He gave us to understand the true meaning of His message.

 

[shernren]

I do not just argue against these endless evolutionary excursions into scorn and bad satire, I defend the clear teachings of the Scriptures where I find arguments that are contrary to sound doctrine.

The excursions into scorn and bad satire happen when you run out of Scriptural steam for your patently self-made arguments. I'll happily admit to the bad satire, by the way; at least my theology actually agrees with the inspired Bible, no matter how uninspired my jokes may be.

You, on the other hand, have denied that the Incarnation is a mystery, contrary to the clear word of 1 Tim 3:16; you have denied that the arrow that shot Ahab was drawn at random, contrary to the clear word of 1 Kings 22:34; you have denied that God causes every lightning bolt to go to its destination, contrary to the clear word of Job 38:22, which may I remind you is the directly reported word of God Himself.

And you think you defend the Scriptures! To use an old Malay proverb, I would rather have a field mouse repair a pumpkin.

 

[mark kennedy]

You could always try addressing the reasoning behind what theologians do, instead of just throwing the word "liberal" around like it means their life's work doesn't count for anything.

I'm calling it what it is, a secular philosophy put in vague theological terminology.

Of course, the false god of the creation doctrine is more important to some people than using the intelligence that He gave us to understand the true meaning of His message.

Thanks for the link, I think the thread will be of interest to the moderators.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[Siyha]

I'm calling it what it is, a secular philosophy put in vague theological terminology.



Thanks for the link, I think the thread will be of interest to the moderators.

Have a nice day
Mark

Please stay on topic. We are talking about who would win between a hippo and an elephant if they fought.

Also, did you really just report a 4 month old thread to mods that you were engaged in at the time and didn't report then?

 

[shernren]

Please stay on topic. We are talking about who would win between a hippo and an elephant if they fought.

The Elephantine Jews were polytheistic; St Augustine of Hippo would rightly have whupped their behinds in a Bible bash.

 

[Assyrian]

The Elephantine Jews were polytheistic; St Augustine of Hippo would rightly have whupped their behinds in a Bible bash.

 

[Mallon]

Enns just developed a new companion website to his I&I book. Looks interesting. There's one section in which he explicitly addresses mark's concern that the Incarnational model of Scripture denies the concept of inerrancy.

Criticism 3: I&I Denies Inerrancy