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Persecution in Uganda/ "Aggravated Homosexuality"

mindlight

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I don't see how it's even remotely similar but I would also support free speech regarding the later two bumper stickers as well. I wouldn't be suprised if you find some black metal bumper sticker with something like that on it. If the person actually did kill babies that of course would be illegal though and rightly so.

It's precisely views that some consider wrong, polluting, etc., that need protection. Views that readily meet public standards of political correctness or religious correctness would need no protection. No sense in even having freedom of speech then.
In what way? How is the right of the gay person to speak their mind not diminished by prohibiting them from speaking their mind on the issue? Here in the US it's readily accepted by millions of people , probably the majority , that individuals should be able to say "I"m gay" in public and you would be silencing all those people by outlawing such speech. Not sure what the poll results would be in Russia but at the very least you are forbidding millions of people from speaking their mind on a religious, political, and moral issue. The fact that you might imply from it that they also have sex with members of the gender they are attracted to (which is what sexual identity references) isn't the same as them having sex in public.

If you are talking about having sex in public then many would consider that over the line of common decency even in a more socially liberal country like the US. Noting, or letting out, that you are heterosexual by say wearing a wedding ring or gay by having a "I"m gay- support gay rights" sticker isn't having sex in public though and is a totally different matter.

One can argue a case without using lewd acts or speech. There is no law that can silence Christians sharing the gospel. There is no case to be made for gay sex - God detests it - end of story.
 
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mindlight

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Uhm...dude....don't buy the folklore ("You can make a deal with the devil!")-nonsense.
Good stories for proving moral points....not objective reality. I thought any adult knew this.

My main point was do not even consider making deals with the devil cause he just wants to destroy you.

You are of course right that Goethes story about Faust is nothing more than a good story.
 
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MrLuther

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I wasn't talking about being friendly to gay people.

Neither was I

I was talking about a requirement that the state outlaw the discussion of ones sexual identity.

I wasn't.

You wont find one of those in the Bible. If you think it's there I would challange you to post the verse.

I think you should have this discussion with someone who supports outlawing discussing homophilia.

The idea that it should be illegal to communicate a fact about yourself is absurd.

So you wouldn't havea problem with someone communicating: "I'm a pedophile!", or "I'm a necrophile"?, etc?
Oh, but by your reasoning, a "pedophile" is simply someone who's friendly to children, and not someone who is sexually attracted to them (and whom they therefore need to be kept away from!), right?

You want people to go to jail for committing the speech crime of describing a fact about their psychology? Maybe we should jail people for saying they feel the urge to over eat because gluttony is sinful too?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If you think that I support the new Ugandan law, I'd like to ask you to point out where I have supported it. Because I do not remember having done so.

That's the second time you've used Valleyspeak to imitate me. Your pathetic tactics don't merit a response, sorry.

Nice attempt to dodge the fact taht you've got no response, and so try to weasel out instead. Not working, though! ;)
 
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Ishraqiyun

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I wasn't.
You seemed to be disagreeing with me and that's what I was discussing. If you agree that the laws Russia and Uganda passed are wrong then I'm with you there. That's what the subject of the thread is about. You didn't seem to be critiquing them and instead offered defense of the idea that people shouldn't say things like that in public. In order not to be misunderstood it might be best to put up a disclaimer like "though I think these laws are horrible violations of free speech and freedom of action I as a conservative Christian still think people shouldn't say things like that in public ... it just shouldn't be illegal" or something to that effect.

Lets review what was posted here:
Me: The New Testament doesn't contain a requirement that states make it illegal for people to communicate their sexual identity.
Your response: The Bible is clear on the matter of homophilia.
You were responding to my statement about the Bible having a requirement that states legally restrict the right of people to mention their sexual identity. Maybe your response was a non sequiter or about some other matter entirely but I assumed it had something to do with the statement you put in quotes above it. That's normal forum protocol.

Oh, but by your reasoning, a "pedophile" is simply someone who's friendly to children
There is already a word for a person attracted to the same sex - homosexual. I assumed you were using that term homphillia to give a different shade of meaning so I looked it up in the dictionary. Couldn't find it in any mainstream dictionary the only place that had it was the Urban Dictionary. It said the word meant friendship / friendlyness with homosexuals. The term pedophile has a long history of meaning a person sexually attracted to children despite the fact that it's etymology isn't so restricted. Homophillia is a different matter all together. It's not even a commonly used word.

So you wouldn't havea problem with someone communicating: "I'm a pedophile!", or "I'm a necrophile"?, etc?
No why would I? If a person finds themselves attracted to children or dead people they have every right to note that fact. It might actually be good to have that information in certain circumstances. You did say you reject laws that make it illegal to say your are gay in public though right?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If you think that I support the new Ugandan law, I'd like to ask you to point out where I have supported it. Because I do not remember having done so.
The whole point of this thread is to discuss those laws. You had yet to call for them to be overturned and instead made arguments against gay rights. If you want to talk about a different topic that's cool but don't be surprised if people assume you are talking about the actual topic of discussion.
 
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Cearbhall

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Even if you hadn't written it, your lack of coherent reasoning and any real arguments would indicate that you are ;)
Hilarious. All you have is the Bible, but you think I'm the one who lacks coherency and real arguments.
Public acts of hardcore BDSM? I'm fairly certain there were already laws against performing sexual acts in public with or without bondage gear. The law in Russia makes it illegal to even mention the fact that you identify as gay. That's not the same thing as sex in public by a long shot. Saying you are gay is no more "having sex in public" then wearing a wedding ring is.
Indeed. I don't know why some homophobes are so obsessed with the sexual aspect of homosexuality. You'd think they would want to ignore it.
 
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Nani-Day

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Hilarious. All you have is the Bible, but you think I'm the one who lacks coherency and real arguments.

Indeed. I don't know why some homophobes are so obsessed with the sexual aspect of homosexuality. You'd think they would want to ignore it.

Your 'teenager' is showing kid. You were doing alright in this discussion until the last few post. Youre ignoring previous statements, and just plain slipping into immaturity. Get back on track.
 
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Cearbhall

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Your 'teenager' is showing kid. You were doing alright in this discussion until the last few post. Youre ignoring previous statements, and just plain slipping into immaturity. Get back on track.
Your condescension is truly immature, but I concede that my decision to share my hopes that MrLuther is young was condescending as well and therefore immature. My apologies for making a post that consisted only of that statement and did not contribute to the discussion. Apart from that, I disagree with your assessment and am impelled to wonder how much you have actually read. Rule of thumb for forums: respond based on the content, not the poster's demographics. I have a hard time taking your advice for a "kid" seriously when you have nothing to say to MrLuther's uncalled for use of "Valleyspeak" to imitate me in multiple threads, which I suspect is also based on demographics and was the reason for my last few posts. There was certainly nothing immature in my past posts that warranted degrading tactics such as that. I find it interesting that calling MrLuther out on this led to someone else behaving in a similar manner.
 
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AJB4

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All these laws in Russia and Uganda, and similar ones other places, are based on false and outdated ideas (about choice in orientation and an established link with paedophilia) to begin with.

But worse than that, these laws have (most likely intentionally) encouraged vigilante groups to harrass, assault, and even kill gays. For that reason, I can't believe that anybody who calls themselves a follower of Christ could condone them. Jesus was not violent and would condemn anyone practicing or encouraging violence in his name.

Whether or not you agree that it's right to be gay (I can say from experience as one who grew up Christian and sincerely tried the 'ex-gay' route that it's not a choice, and I'll be damned if I'm going to go through life being punished for feelings that I didn't choose - forgive me) people have the right to disagree with your view on it. The law in Russia in particular forbids disagreement with the idea that it is wrong, and so it's not just attacking gay rights - it's attacking free speech.

Americans, so big on that thing called free speech say that pro-gay activists who attack these outdated and false ideas about gays are attacking the right to free speech, and in some occasional cases they may be right (if jobs are lost mostly). But what's worse? Trying to correct the slander that's spouted about us on a daily basis with little consequences most of the time to who's being spoken out against, or ushering in and/or supporting laws that forbid people to disagree with some people's moral codes, prevent people from living freely (even if keeping to themselves) and above all, promote violence and death?

At least I can take comfort in the fact that the bigots in the world are not winning this particular war. Our rights are being recognized in more parts of the world every single day. Whenever one country takes a step backwards, there are lots more taking steps forwards. I feel so bad for those in parts of the world who are punished for something that's about as controllable as skin colour, you have no idea :(. But as I said, in global terms, bigots are losing this war by far, and I can count myself lucky I come from a part of the world where things aren't perfect, but we're at worst tolerated :).
 
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AJB4

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Oops, went O/T for a bit. OK, bottom line: Yes, these laws are silly. I have no problem at all with opposition to gay marriage actually believe it or not (I don't agree, but at least that can be justified by scripture), but making it actually punishable by law is both wrong and what makes it even more regrettable is that it's so pointless. Gay people will always exist in society whether they're forced to take their relationships into hiding or not. Whether the objective of these laws are to make gay people choose heterosexuality or try to clear homosexuality from society, neither can be done.
 
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DaisyDay

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the russian law didn't outlaw sodomy; in fact, while under the soviet union it was a crime, it was legalized in the 90s. The soviets saw it as a decadent fascist vice, mostly because there were a lot of gay fascists then / now.

The Russian law just makes it illegal to propagandize youth about non-traditional lifestyles. Naturally this enraged the western prestige media, who had been doing precisely that for the last decade.

as for uganda, I think a bit of leeway should be given to nations whose life expectancies dropped a decade or more due to the AIDS pandemic. We can pretend to be ignorant about the vectors of STIs in the west because of improved wealth and medicine.
In Uganda, at least as many women as men have AIDS - it is NOT a "gay disease".
 
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