Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

[Philothei]

I want to know if you can find where the RC get the IC from the fathers.. Just curious here...

Why create immaculata when piety is already given to people's life since the beginning that is the possibility to do good. Another observation that "extra grace" to Panagia to always do good is nothing more than saying she had almost "perfect will" something that is attributed only to God ... He has ONLY perfect will as does Christ and the Holy Spirit the Godhead...no else can do that.... If God did that to Mary then her "nature" her changed into something "more than human" and thus she is again hanging mid-air between in her own "existance"... or way of being... So we remain with the thought that God can give some, or more Grace thus grace is quantative to each individula again God acts indepently of his own "creative law" that is that he created three orders three orders the angels, the animals and the human being... Giving more grace looks like He creates a different existance ... a different being altogether that is does not only "sets apart" as for a different purpose but also "messes up" with her humanity... The Grace that Theotokos is given is not any more or extra than any ohter person "assisting" God in his plan. In the bible it says she was blessed among women but it does not qualify for us what was that state of blessedness. Blessdness was a concept understood by Jews for pious people living in God's fear and awe and in tune with His will... Such people as the prophets, apostles etc.IMHO.

 

[Philothei]

Good questions, and I don't have any fast answers unfortunately. I'd have to do a bit of studying and percolate on these a bit before rendering an opinion. If anyone else, better studied than I, can answer these please do so.

Thank you intercisus that would be good to know some more about this... I am not too familiar with the IC myself but will go back and read what you all quoted for us

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Why would I prove or attempt to prove that she was born into something that never existed, and is the unfortunate invention of a mistranslation of the Koine by the otherwise stunning mind, Augustine?

There is plenty in scripture, and in the writings of the ECFs, to demonstrate Mary was born fallible. That she is without stain or blemish is a function of her Theosis, not a deliverance from a non-existent condition.

Allow me to be blunt, please: Original (Inhereited/Imputed) Sin, as defined by Augustine, and understood by Pontiffs even into this century, does not exist. The IC is a device that addresses this non-existent problem.

Okay, I see where you are coming from now. You can't accept the IC becuase you don't believe in original sin in the first place. Hmmm. Interesting. Odd, but interesting.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Okay, I see where you are coming from now. You can't accept the IC becuase you don't believe in original sin in the first place. Hmmm. Interesting. Odd, but interesting.

My Catholic friend and brother...


Question: As a Catholic, since he denies a DOGMA and since he denies the DOGMA on which it is based, is he a heretic? Or just gravely wrong?


Question: Since I don't deny the IC and since I affirm the dogma on which it is based, does that make me less of a heretic or less wrong than our Orthodox brother - at least on this point?



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[Philothei]

Allow me to be blunt, please: Original (Inhereited/Imputed) Sin, as defined by Augustine, and understood by Pontiffs even into this century, does not exist. The IC is a device that addresses this non-existent problem.

Okay, I see where you are coming from now. You can't accept the IC becuase you don't believe in original sin in the first place. Hmmm. Interesting. Odd, but interesting.

We have to make a dinstiction here: What Iakovos is saying is that we do not accept the Augustian way of thinking about the orginal sin...That is far cry from what you say.... We believe in the "fallen state" of nature after the fall. That would mean we are in a "corruption" state and not immortal. We lost paradise due to disobedience. No question about that. The mother of God was mortal like everyone else... that would mean she inherited the effects of the fallen state...That is what we say...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We have to make a dinstiction here: What Iakovos is saying is that we do not accept the Augustian way of thinking about the orginal sin...That is far cry from what you say.... We believe in the "fallen state" of nature after the fall. That would mean we are in a "corruption" state and not immortal. We lost paradise due to disobedience. No question about that. The mother of God was mortal like everyone else... that would mean she inherited the effects of the fallen state...That is what we say...

Greetings Philo. Have you seen this thread on the GT board?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7353336
Was Augustine Sola Scriptura?

 

[Anoetos]

We have to make a dinstiction here: What Iakovos is saying is that we do not accept the Augustian way of thinking about the orginal sin...That is far cry from what you say.... We believe in the "fallen state" of nature after the fall. That would mean we are in a "corruption" state and not immortal. We lost paradise due to disobedience. No question about that. The mother of God was mortal like everyone else... that would mean she inherited the effects of the fallen state...That is what we say...

Is it correct to say that the Orthodox do not reject the idea of Original Sin as a sickness and propensity to sin on the part of Adam's children but that you do reject the idea that these children are guilty of Adam's sin as well as their own?

 

[Philothei]

Yeah...You kind like inherit the condition (loosing immortality)... of the sin but not the sin... We are not responsible for Adam's sin as we can "mess up" on our own ...hehehe...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is it correct to say that the Orthodox do not reject the idea of Original Sin as a sickness and propensity to sin on the part of Adam's children but that you do reject the idea that these children are guilty of Adam's sin as well as their own?

I agree......What was the purpose of YHWH sending JESUS if not to take away the Sin of the World

John 1:29 The on-morrow, he is looking/blepei <991> (5719) , the John, the JESUS coming toward him, and is saying "behold!, the Lamb/amnoV <286> of the God, the one taking away the Sin of the World";
34 And I have seen, and have witnessed, that this-one is the Son of the God.'
35 The on-morrow again stood the John, and out of the disciples of him, two
36 And gazing/embleyaV <1689> (5660) to-the Jesus about-walking, he is saying "behold!, the Lamb/amnoV <286> of the God".

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

 

[Philothei]

Christ came to free us from death and corruption and assume our nature to Glorify it. He assumed our nature of corruption and through his resurection he gave us life eternal. He conquered the evil for us and he raised us up. He gave us the hope of the resurrection that was taken away from us the minute Adam and Eve walked away from Paradise. We are all sinners regardless Adam and Eve's sin... In that sense he did away our sins as our Lord and Saviour through his forgiveness... See how this works?

 

[Philothei]

Adam's and Eve's sin is THEIR sin and they were dealed with Christ...Adam and Eve were raised by the Ressurected Christ after his discension to Hades :

Here the icon of Resurection:


That is why in EO theology the Ressurection is the most important as if Christ was not ressurected he would not have conquered Death by his death...

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Thou didst descend into the tomb, O Immortal, Thou didst destroy the power of death. In victory didst Thou arise, O Christ God, proclaiming "Rejoice" to the myrrhbearing women, granting peace to Thy apostles, and bestowing resurrection on the fallen.

Hymn of the Resurrection

Having beheld the Resurrection of Christ, let us worship the Holy Lord Jesus, tne onfy sinless One. We venerate Thy Cross, O Christ, and we praise and glorify Thy holy Resur-rection; for Thou art our God, and we know no other than Thee; we call on Thy name.

Come, all you faithful, let us venerate. Christ's holy Resurrection. For, behold through the Cross joy has come into all the world. Let us ever bless the Lord, praising His Resurrection, for by enduring the Cross for us, He has destroyed death by death!

http://www.orthodoxy.org.au/eng/index.php?p=86

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

My Catholic friend and brother...

Question: As a Catholic, since he denies a DOGMA and since he denies the DOGMA on which it is based, is he a heretic? Or just gravely wrong?....

He is not a Catholic, so denying Catholic teaching does not make him a heretic. In THE ABSTRACT, the belief that there is no original sin is a "heresy", but I cannot call HIM a heretic because he is not a Catholic who is rejecting Catholic teaching.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

My Catholic friend and brother...


Question: As a Catholic, since he denies a DOGMA and since he denies the DOGMA on which it is based, is he a heretic? Or just gravely wrong?

I would have to be Catholic to depart from Catholic teaching. So I don't qualify as an heretic.

As for being "wrong:"
Prove me so.

Question: Since I don't deny the IC and since I affirm the dogma on which it is based, does that make me less of a heretic or less wrong than our Orthodox brother - at least on this point?

I'm consistent, and consistently EO. You are a cafetera Catholic, to be quite blunt.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

We have to make a dinstiction here: What Iakovos is saying is that we do not accept the Augustian way of thinking about the orginal sin...That is far cry from what you say.... We believe in the "fallen state" of nature after the fall. That would mean we are in a "corruption" state and not immortal. We lost paradise due to disobedience. No question about that. The mother of God was mortal like everyone else... that would mean she inherited the effects of the fallen state...That is what we say...

Thank you Philothei- you've done a wonderful job of explaining and making clear what I stated.

As you say, we we reject Augustine's error. His error was based upon a single errant translation- but from that he built a doctrine which is unnecessary, superfluous. The Calvinists took his error to a dimension Augustine never voiced, making OS stain and defile everything utterly. Error built upon error.

Is there a consequence of the Fall? Tremendous cost and consequence, and a weakness which dogs our every step. But children do not inherit Adam's guilt- they inherit a world in which Adam's sin hangs in the air like dog flatulence. Mary sought the sweet smell of the Rose of Sharon from day one.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

A talk by Scott Hahn just came to mind, which I wish I had remembered earlier. He explained that Original Sin is not something, but the lack of a thing - the lack of Sanctiying Grace.

He said that most people misunderstand original sin, that using the phrase "Stain of Origonal Sin" is misleading Again, because Original Sin is not something, but the lack of a thing.

He said that Adam and Eve were created in a stae of grace, sinless. But through their sin they were DISgraced - they fell from grace. So, their children and all who have come after them are NOT born in a state of sancitying grace. THAT is what Original Sin really means. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

A talk by Scott Hahn just came to mind, which I wish I had remembered earlier. He explained that Original Sin is not something, but the lack of a thing - the lack of Sanctiying Grace.

He said that most people misunderstand original sin, that using the phrase "Stain of Origonal Sin" is misleading Again, because Original Sin is not something, but the lack of a thing.

He said that Adam and Eve were created in a stae of grace, sinless. But through their sin they were DISgraced - they fell from grace. So, their children and all who have come after them are NOT born in a state of sancitying grace. THAT is what Original Sin really means. It makes a lot of sense.

DISgraced! LOL

That was a good one.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

DISgraced! LOL

That was a good one.

That was the actual word he used. It was on an episode of the Journey Home.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

DISgraced! LOL

That was a good one.

Nahum 3:5 " Behold Me! declaration of YHWH of hosts "and I roll skirts of thee over thy faces and I show nations nakedness of thee and kingdoms shame of thee.

Reve 17:16 And the ten horns which thou saw and the beast, these shall be hating the Prostitute and desolate they shall be making Her and naked. And the fleshes of Her they shall be eating and Her they shall be burning in fire.

 

[bbbbbbb]

DISgrace reminds me of DISease.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

DISgrace reminds me of DISease.

Jesus is a healer.