[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Sins of the Ignorant

[Urlawyer]

Hello and good evening to you all. I am an atheist. Just thought I'd put that out there right away.
As a former christian and member of a predominantly christian family, I find myself frequently analyzing christian philosophy and asking questions of myself and others to understand various problems with the faith. More often than not, unfortunately, I am met with unsatisfying or even downright... um, unintelligent answers, shall we say. I am hoping that, by posing my question(s) to a wider audience via the internet, I might receive better, more satisfying results.
That said, here is my question:

One of the biggest pillars of the christian faith is the divine sacrifice of the savior, Jesus, so that people might be saved from the consequences of original sin and instead be delivered to the almighty creator in heaven. In order to receive redemption, one must only believe and accept Christ as his savior (John 3:16 and John 14:6).
The problem arises when one thinks about those who will never have the opportunity to hear about, much less accept, Jesus Christ. What will happen to those people? Will they be sent to hell for ignorance? What kind of loving, all powerful god would enforce such a horrific punishment for so unavoidable a crime? Or alternatively, would God have mercy and allow them into heaven, in which case all mention of Jesus should cease so that no one would even have the option to reject him?
Either way, it's a conundrum. One for which christian apologetics, in my view, has failed to provide a good answer. I would hope to get different answers here than that which has already been plastered over the internet so that I don't have to explain my reasoning as to why those explanations don't work; but I will if I must.

I look forward to a reasonable and enlightening discussion.

 

[Dave RP]

Indeed, this is exactly the reason why I could not accept the Christian theology - Ghandi, Einstein, Bohr, Max Born, Sigmund Freud, every Muslim, every Hindu, etc etc etc go to eternal damnation - that's how it was explained to me, so I would be most grateful to see what the answers by Christians might be.

 

[juvenissun]

What will happen to those people? Will they be sent to hell for ignorance? What kind of loving, all powerful god would enforce such a horrific punishment for so unavoidable a crime? Or alternatively, would God have mercy and allow them into heaven, in which case all mention of Jesus should cease so that no one would even have the option to reject him?
Either way, it's a conundrum.

This is a significant question.

The common answer is: God will decide in the Final Judgement according to what did those people do when he was alive. But, this does not really answer your question.

Let's say a sincere Buddhist monk, never have chance to reject Christianity, committed no crime and always do no harm to others. Where would he go? Yes, it is up to God to make the judgement. He might go to Heaven. But we do not know. However, would he also have a good chance to go to Hell?

Before this question could be answered, we NEED to make clear on the nature of places people might go. Of course, Heaven and Hell. BUT, is that it? Is there a place in between the Heaven and the Hell, where is definitely not Heaven, but is neither the Hell as we know it. Purgatory is not a choice since it is not a place people would stay permanently. Purgatory just postponed the answer, but does not give an answer.

If this question could be answered, then the answer to your question would become very easy. Those "innocent/ignorant" people will simple go to the place in between the Heaven and the Hell.

 

[Dave RP]

This is a significant question.

The common answer is: God will decide in the Final Judgement according to what did those people do when he was alive. But, this does not really answer your question.

Let's say a sincere Buddhist monk, never have chance to reject Christianity, committed no crime and always do no harm to others. Where would he go? Yes, it is up to God to make the judgement. He might go to Heaven. But we do not know. However, would he also have a good chance to go to Hell?

Before this question could be answered, we NEED to make clear on the nature of places people might go. Of course, Heaven and Hell. BUT, is that it? Is there a place in between the Heaven and the Hell, where is definitely not Heaven, but is neither the Hell as we know it. Purgatory is not a choice since it is not a place people would stay permanently. Purgatory just postponed the answer, but does not give an answer.

If this question could be answered, then the answer to your question would become very easy. Those "innocent/ignorant" people will simple go to the place in between the Heaven and the Hell.

Somewhere like Croydon then?

 

[Urlawyer]

If this question could be answered, then the answer to your question would become very easy. Those "innocent/ignorant" people will simple go to the place in between the Heaven and the Hell.

I suppose you mean something like limbo? Could be an answer to ghosts and the like; but that's another whole can of worms I don't want to open.
My problem with this answer is that it still snatches the ability to make a choice away from someone. Anything short of going to heaven should be considered a punishment since you are ultimately cut off from glory; you've just replaced hell with something less nasty, however much so. How can a person be expected to answer a question that was never asked of them in the first place?

 

[juvenissun]

I suppose you mean something like limbo? Could be an answer to ghosts and the like; but that's another whole can of worms I don't want to open.
My problem with this answer is that it still snatches the ability to make a choice away from someone. Anything short of going to heaven should be considered a punishment since you ultimately cut off from glory; you've just replaced hell with something less nasty, however much so. How can a person be expected to answer a question that was never asked of them in the first place?

They can not. That is why the Great White Throne Judgement is set (notice there will be TWO "books" set in front of the Judge). Those people in question will be judged according to what they did on the earth. Don't overlook this. This is serious. According to the standard set by Jesus (one can NOT argue at that time, there will be no cunning lawyer to represent you), who can stand straight in the Judgement?

In fact, this is one of the essential point in the Gospel. No one can be self-justified according to God's rule (because they are applying the visa to the Heaven).

It is only fair that when Christians will be rewarded according to what they did on the earth, non-Christian will also be punished according to what they did on the earth. A Christian may not be a "better" person than a non-Christian on the earth. But during the Judgement, they will be evaluated according to TWO entirely different systems (the TWO Books in Rev.20). That is why is it so important to be a Christian.

 

[juvenissun]

Indeed, this is exactly the reason why I could not accept the Christian theology - Ghandi, Einstein, Bohr, Max Born, Sigmund Freud, every Muslim, every Hindu, etc etc etc go to eternal damnation - that's how it was explained to me, so I would be most grateful to see what the answers by Christians might be.

If they were not Christian, then they will NOT be in the Heaven. That is for sure.
However, they may not be put in the place as you described: "go to eternal damnation". I think you have the "Lake of Fire" in mind. I have good reasons to believe that the Lake of Fire is not the entire place which is generally called the Hell. Instead, I think it could only be a small corner in the Hell.

 

[Larniavc]

If they were not Christian, then they will NOT be in the Heaven. That is for sure.
However, they may not be put in the place as you described: "go to eternal damnation". I think you have the "Lake of Fire" in mind. I have good reasons to believe that the Lake of Fire is not the entire place which is generally called the Hell. Instead, I think it could only be a small corner in the Hell.

What good reason?

 

[Urlawyer]

If they were not Christian, then they will NOT be in the Heaven. That is for sure.
However, they may not be put in the place as you described: "go to eternal damnation". I think you have the "Lake of Fire" in mind. I have good reasons to believe that the Lake of Fire is not the entire place which is generally called the Hell. Instead, I think it could only be a small corner in the Hell.

Theories about what exactly is beyond death aside, this is really a question of justification for judgement. As I indicated before: a person should not be judged for their inability to pick sides, whether for good or bad. It simply isn't reasonable.
If you choose to say "It is only fair that when Christians will be rewarded according to what they did on the earth, non-Christian will also be punished according to what they did on the earth" even though not being a christian isn't a choice 100% of the time (in fact it's probably a "choice" closer to 30-50% of the time globally) then fine; I have a better understanding of the ideals of your faith. But I want you to understand that it sounds completely absurd to the rest of us and is one of the reasons it is so hard to get on board with Christianity.

 

[juvenissun]

What good reason?

Several, all Bible based interpretations.

1. The Heaven has a boundary. Outside the Heaven, it is not Heaven any more. God (normally) can not be seen outside the Heaven. However, beings (angels and humans) in the Heaven can go in and out the Heaven.

Can you appreciate this reason?

 

[juvenissun]

Theories about what exactly is beyond death aside, this is really a question of justification for judgement. As I indicated before: a person should not be judged for their inability to pick sides, whether for good or bad. It simply isn't reasonable.
If you choose to say "It is only fair that when Christians will be rewarded according to what they did on the earth, non-Christian will also be punished according to what they did on the earth" even though not being a christian isn't a choice 100% of the time (in fact it's probably a "choice" closer to 30-50% of the time globally) then fine; I have a better understanding of the ideals of your faith. But I want you to understand that it sounds completely absurd to the rest of us and is one of the reasons it is so hard to get on board with Christianity.

If so, consider an example: Where would king David go after he is resurrected at the End?

 

[juvenissun]

Theories about what exactly is beyond death aside, this is really a question of justification for judgement. As I indicated before: a person should not be judged for their inability to pick sides, whether for good or bad. It simply isn't reasonable.
If you choose to say "It is only fair that when Christians will be rewarded according to what they did on the earth, non-Christian will also be punished according to what they did on the earth" even though not being a christian isn't a choice 100% of the time (in fact it's probably a "choice" closer to 30-50% of the time globally) then fine; I have a better understanding of the ideals of your faith. But I want you to understand that it sounds completely absurd to the rest of us and is one of the reasons it is so hard to get on board with Christianity.

My faith is not odd. It is the main stream faith of Christianity. My interpretation may be less commonly heard.

You are one who have chance to understand. Many others don't. However, understanding is a gift from God, but is not needed for Salvation. The decision of accepting Jesus Christ or not is the only key. That along separates people into two kinds.

Yes, it is not fair. But that is what Jesus Christ came to the earth for. That is why the Gospel means Good News. If it is humanly fair, then what good is that?

 

[DogmaHunter]

This is a significant question.

The common answer is: God will decide in the Final Judgement according to what did those people do when he was alive. But, this does not really answer your question.

Let's say a sincere Buddhist monk, never have chance to reject Christianity, committed no crime and always do no harm to others. Where would he go? Yes, it is up to God to make the judgement. He might go to Heaven. But we do not know. However, would he also have a good chance to go to Hell?

Before this question could be answered, we NEED to make clear on the nature of places people might go. Of course, Heaven and Hell. BUT, is that it? Is there a place in between the Heaven and the Hell, where is definitely not Heaven, but is neither the Hell as we know it. Purgatory is not a choice since it is not a place people would stay permanently. Purgatory just postponed the answer, but does not give an answer.

If this question could be answered, then the answer to your question would become very easy. Those "innocent/ignorant" people will simple go to the place in between the Heaven and the Hell.

"hell as we know it" - that made me chuckle.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That is why is it so important to be a Christian.

It's also why this conceptual system is an immoral and unjust system.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, it is not fair. But that is what Jesus Christ came to the earth for. That is why the Gospel means Good News. If it is humanly fair, then what good is that?

Emphasis mine.

The revelation of an UNFAIR, UNJUST and IMMORAL system is the very opposite of "good news". In fact, it's VERY VERY BAD NEWS.

So bad, so unjust, so unfair, that the idea of it being true is as absurd as it is irrational.

 

[J. Bleize]

The revelation of an UNFAIR, UNJUST and IMMORAL system is the very opposite of "good news". In fact, it's VERY VERY BAD NEWS.

Which one, democracy or communism? What's your divine system of fairness?

The question of the thread is essentially the same as "Where do infants go when they die?" and if I were to dare an answer I'd say that God's judgement is divine and therefore he would know whether or not that infant would have accepted him in life if it had the choice. People that die without ever having heard of Christ could be the same case. God knows their hearts and he knows whether or not they would have accepted his salvation or rejected it. Since they never had the chance I believe that if they were to be sent to hell it would be far closer to mere non-existence than eternal punishment. There is only the presence of God and its opposite, separation from God, so if God's judgement found them to have chosen separation they would be separated. The separation would not necessarily mean that they would receive punishment, though.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Which one, democracy or communism?

I was talking about christianity as presented in the post I was replying to.

What's your divine system of fairness?

I don't have a need for "divinity".

The question of the thread is essentially the same as "Where do infants go when they die?"

I created a thread about exactly that a few weeks ago.
The responses in that thread and the discussions going on there was downright frightening and rather horrible.

and if I were to dare an answer I'd say that God's judgement is divine and therefore he would know whether or not that infant would have accepted him in life if it had the choice.

Which would be contradicting to the idea of "free will".

People that die without ever having heard of Christ could be the same case. God knows their hearts and he knows whether or not they would have accepted his salvation or rejected it.

One would have to believe the religious claims of christianity BEFORE one could decide to "accept" or "reject" the salvation bits.

As it stands today, nobody can rationally accept any religion since accepting things as true on faith is irrational.

I'ld hope that IF there is a god, he'ld prefer rational beliefs over irrational beliefs...

Since they never had the chance I believe that if they were to be sent to hell it would be far closer to mere non-existence than eternal punishment. There is only the presence of God and its opposite, separation from God, so if God's judgement found them to have chosen separation they would be separated. The separation would not necessarily mean that they would receive punishment, though.

Alway fun to make stuff up ha.

 

[Albion]

Regarding the question of the OP....

This is actually one of the easier and more "clear cut" questions about Christianity. The answer is that we do not know.

It is a misconception that the Bible (and, therefore, the faith) must answer every question that the mind of man can come up with. We have been given to know some things, through revelation, that we could not otherwise deduce. That's why there is revelation. But neither does it logically follow that God has seen fit to reveal everything to us in this life. The purpose of divine revelation is to reveal that which we need to know or, to be more precise, need to know in order to be reconciled to God.

Therefore, and as for the question specifically, the Bible warns about the fate of those who are not in Christ in this life being estranged from God in the next. That much we are told. In addition, there are a few hints, we might say, of some exceptions to this...and there are some Christians who want to make them into "proofs" of universal salvation, but we just do not know more.

The more relevant point may be that there is no reason for us TO know. Judgment is entirely up to God--and the Bible is clear enough on that point!

 

[juvenissun]

Which one, democracy or communism? What's your divine system of fairness?

The question of the thread is essentially the same as "Where do infants go when they die?" and if I were to dare an answer I'd say that God's judgement is divine and therefore he would know whether or not that infant would have accepted him in life if it had the choice. People that die without ever having heard of Christ could be the same case. God knows their hearts and he knows whether or not they would have accepted his salvation or rejected it. Since they never had the chance I believe that if they were to be sent to hell it would be far closer to mere non-existence than eternal punishment. There is only the presence of God and its opposite, separation from God, so if God's judgement found them to have chosen separation they would be separated. The separation would not necessarily mean that they would receive punishment, though.

I would say an infant (and fetus) would be a slightly different case. Not only the infant did not have chance to hear the Gospel, but even heard, he would not be able to make decision for himself. So, in the GWT Judgement, the standard might be slightly different and the verdict could also be different.

 

[Dave RP]

Regarding the question of the OP....

This is actually one of the easier and more "clear cut" questions about Christianity. The answer is that we do not know.

It is a misconception that the Bible (and, therefore, the faith) must answer every question that the mind of man can come up with. We have been given to know some things, through revelation, that we could not otherwise deduce. That's why there is revelation. But neither does it logically follow that God has seen fit to reveal everything to us in this life. The purpose of divine revelation is to reveal that which we need to know or, to be more precise, need to know in order to be reconciled to God.

Therefore, and as for the question specifically, the Bible warns about the fate of those who are not in Christ in this life being estranged from God in the next. That much we are told. In addition, there are a few hints, we might say, of some exceptions to this...and there are some Christians who want to make them into "proofs" of universal salvation, but we just do not know more.

The more relevant point may be that there is no reason for us TO know. Judgment is entirely up to God--and the Bible is clear enough on that point!

Thanks for a reasoned response, this is why there are so many religions in the world, we simply don'y know........ Indeed we don't, and if you believe on one of the available gods, then you're comfortable with that, as you are if you don't believe in one of the available gods.