[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Planned Parenthood Falsely Accussed in Video

[KCfromNC]

Right. And just ignore the actual words that came out of our mouth, or the man behind the curtain...

Do you feel you're making some sort of point here?

 

[Dpierre]

I thought that by "expressed wants" you meant

and heeeere we go again.Matey it seems you just can't stop. You read something like scripture or someone's posts then insert your spin and twist on it and then spit it out as what the other person said and meant when its really what you created. This despite promising to quit that

Something you might want to consider is that the people who work in PP's abortion clinics actually care about their patients, want to be careful not to pressure them into making any particular decision, and are just as satisfied to hand someone who arrived thinking she wanted an abortion a prenatal referral instead and watch her go out the door if that's what she decides.

What you might want to consider is that its ridiculous for you to speak for everyone who works in PP's abortion clinics like you have met all of them (and have a clue about what satisfies all of them as if you know all their feelings) AND the knowledge of possible income for PP should they decide to have an abortion is EXACTLY what could interfere with that. Also has nothing to do with being "utterly craven". Once gain you construct a strawman. In fact if you are a zealot for how great PP is you are more likely to be passionate about them having the funds to do their.....cough.... wonderful work of murdering babies because their mom and dads couldn't (for the most part) make sensible decisions about their own bodies.

I think that will actually bring us closer to the truth here.

Thats ironic. I actually think if you just stop assuming and mischaracterizing posts and passages it would get us closer to the truth.

 

[Dpierre]

As volunteers, they have no stake in what kind of fees are collected, how many stay and how many leave. Some of them do it because they have been in the same position and were grateful to PP for being there for them.

As volunteers they are true believers so why wouldn't they have a "stake" in PP getting money to go on doing the work they believe in? The idea that the only motivation and interest people can have in something is if they are personally making cash out of it ignores the many motivations real humans have and on that basis makes no sense.

who talk with each woman before she signs her consent, acting as a sounding board, making sure she knows all her options, and making sure she feels firm in her decision.

lol....my friend is this like a description from Mary Poppins? Spare us all the spin as fact please. PP volunteers are not some unbiased above any taint of their own personal opinions human beings. You just like those colors on them (so they look purdy). If a woman comes in conflicted on whether she should kill her baby we both know PP volunteers are far more likely to view the baby as a "fetus" which by itself is a bias right there. donations of cash for a cause you believe in is to any rational mind a potential conflict of interest. That's why making a penny over costs is an issue regardless of legalities. Denying the obvious gets you nowhere. Your previous attempt to climb into the minds of every single volunteer to claim that what logically would tend to be a conflict of interest in most other situations doesn't apply to PP volunteer is sorry to say just denial

 

[Dpierre]

Yes, objective reality is quite enjoyable. You should give it a try.

You might try coming out of the fantasy world you are living in - into REAL objective reality. Quoting the accused as a source of their innocence is to any rational human being the very opposite of objectivity.

 

[Glass*Soul]

and heeeere we go again.Matey it seems you just can't stop. You read something like scripture or someone's posts then insert your spin and twist on it and then spit it out as what the other person said and meant when its really what you created. This despite promising to quit that



What you might want to consider is that its ridiculous for you to speak for everyone who works in PP's abortion clinics like you have met all of them (and have a clue about what satisfies all of them as if you know all their feelings) AND the knowledge of possible income for PP should they decide to have an abortion is EXACTLY what could interfere with that. Also has nothing to do with being "utterly craven". Once gain you construct a strawman. In fact if you are a zealot for how great PP is you are more likely to be passionate about them having the funds to do their.....cough.... wonderful work of murdering babies because their mom and dads couldn't (for the most part) make sensible decisions about their own bodies.



Thats ironic. I actually think if you just stop assuming and mischaracterizing posts and passages it would get us closer to the truth.

If we're going to have a discussion, then I have to draw some sort of meaning from your words. My intent is to understand your meaning. If I get it wrong, simply rephrase what you said so that any misunderstandings on my part are corrected. I'm not sure how else to proceed.

I would say you have attributed some opinions and motives to me above that are not my own.

To restate my point for whomever is interested, I think it will help our discussion if we imagine those who work for PP as being as nuanced and multifaceted in their motives and thinking as any of the rest of us. If we get too one sided in our own thinking or attribute too one-sided a personality to those we oppose that actually takes us farther from the truth rather than closer to it. It does not require having an intimate knowledge of each and every person's inner workings to apply this. It is possible for a non-profit agency to be staffed by people who spend the lion's share of their time thinking about how to help their clients while still holding a thought for how to keep their doors open. (A financial officer more so the latter, but that would be her job.) It is possible to feel that abortion needs to be available while still understanding that not everyone who asks about abortion as an option or even shows up for an appointment is actually fully decided and that some may need to walk away and rethink and to fully support that. Acknowledging that a certain amount needs to be recouped in order to adequately pay employees for preparing and transporting donated specimens and support them with space, time, services and equipment does not mean that one is slavering over the tens of dollars that this involves. One can understand these funds are needed and still be motivated by wanting to help medical research.

 

[Dpierre]

If we're going to have a discussion, then I have to draw some sort of meaning from your words. My intent is to understand your meaning. If I get it wrong, simply rephrase what you said so that any misunderstandings on my part are corrected. I'm not sure how else to proceed.

Obviously meaning has to be derived from words. Thats the whole point of language! Thats not the problem. If your intent was to understand my meaning theres a simple procedure well known for that - its called asking. What you instead do is choose a meaning that best suits your own agenda and proceed to draw conclusions based on it as if its building on what I said. Something sorry to say mate you said you would stop doing but have not and are now essentially claiming you don't have to and its my responsibility to correct your own contructs when you fly off into flights of your fancy.

I think it will help our discussion if we imagine those who work for PP as being as nuanced and multifaceted in their motives and thinking as any of the rest of us. If we get too one sided in our own thinking or attribute too one-sided a personality to those we oppose that actually takes us farther from the truth rather than closer to it.

Creating caricatures of human behavior does not get us closer to any truth. good and bad human beings can and do have conflicts of interest. This is not about being one sided or trying to force your assessment that any point here stands or falls base on ascribing a personality. We do not have to ascribe a personality to see conflict of interest. The person with a conflict of interest does not have to be evil , one dimensional or "craven". These are all unfortunately strawmen you have created to suit yourself . Conflict of interest speaks to none of that. Its speaks to an interest that may be conflicted as the words imply. Period. If you support PP obviously you would like for them to have the funds to operate and even do more. If a woman decides not to abort you don't have the tissues to sell so the question of whether money is made over the costs remains to any logical person an issue as to possible conflict of interest

What you are attempting to insinuate is really a thinly veiled ad hom attack that if you hold the position there is a conflict of interest it is because you are judgmental in nature considering volunteers as "craven". Its a totally ridiculous insinuation you should be particularly embarrassed to make after promising to stop making false assumptions to further your own position.

It does not require having an intimate knowledge of each and every person's inner workings to apply this.

No but it certainly does require that if you make universal pronouncements such as

Something you might want to consider is that the people who work in PP's abortion clinics actually care about their patients, want to be careful not to pressure them into making any particular decision, and are just as satisfied to hand someone who arrived thinking she wanted an abortion a prenatal referral instead and watch her go out the door if that's what she decides.

Without "most", "some or "many" . Its an attempt to ascribe a certain set of characteristics to everyone in a group. As long as even a few or even one doesn't have those characteristics or methods of action then the whole argument goes down the drain and the potential for conflict of interest is a real one

It is possible for a non-profit agency to be staffed by people who spend the lion's share of their time thinking about how to help their clients while still holding a thought for how to keep their doors open.

Sure its possible and likely that some would think about that at some time if they cared about the organization and thats all that would setup a conflict of interest. Once gain you try to create a strawman to suit yourself. No one said a thing about not having both as a consideration. You merely assume again that your own caricature has relevance to my point. You are the only one claiming a 100% black or white argument.

At this point I don't think you know how to stop with the false assumptions mate. It seems to be systemic to how you discuss issues. This whole lecture on being more nuanced and seeing people in a more mutifaceted way is just based entirely on your own strawman insinuation you made up in your head that my points rely on seeing people one dimensionally.

Again conflict of interest has nothing to do with people being one dimensional. ANYONE can have a conflict of interest be they Evil of Good. This is like my fourth request to stop twisting things to suit yourself.

 

[KCfromNC]

You might try coming out of the fantasy world you are living in - into REAL objective reality.

The REAL objective reality where several states have investigated the claims against PP and found that there was no substance to them, you mean? It is the same one where a number of people have identified a bunch of misleading edits to the videos that opponents of PP are trying to avoid talking about. There's certainly a consistent story here - it just doesn't fit in with the conservative political agenda so we get page after page talking about everything but these facts.

 

[Audacious]

I don't understand how anyone can oppose Planned Parenthood, because most of what they provide are relatively cheap and necessary medical services to women. I want that care to be accessible to my mother and my sister, and therefore I support them as an organization. They'll also serve men in one small but significant fashion: they offer $20 for STD testing (a hospital will charge you $180).

Yes, they do abortions, but abortions are 7% of the services they provide.

 

[Dpierre]

The REAL objective reality where several states have investigated the claims against PP and found that there was no substance to them, you mean?.

No I mean where you quoted a PP representatives statement of their innocence as proof of their innocence. I think just about everyone in this thread besides yourself gets the issue with doing that but if sticking you head in the sand and avoiding why thats subjective works for you then enjoy the cool sand matey.

 

[Dpierre]

I don't understand how anyone can oppose Planned Parenthood, because most of what they provide are relatively cheap and necessary medical services to women.....Yes, they do abortions, but abortions are 7% of the services they provide.

So if a murderer comes into contact with 100 children and only kills 7 you have a problem figuring out how anyone could oppose them? Alrighteee then. Just as long as the other 93 times they provide cheap services its a wash?

Claiming you don't agree its murder is one thing not understanding why people who do think its murder would oppose PP is unfathomable

 

[Audacious]

So if a murderer comes into contact with 100 children and only kills 7 you have a problem figuring out how anyone could oppose them? Alrighteee then. Just as long as the other 93 times they provide cheap services its complete its a wash.

Many cases of abortions are medical abortions, meaning they abort for medical reasons, and those are important to keep safe.

The actions of Planned Parenthood are completely legal, and also not the same as murder; they aren't going around rampantly murdering random children, they are committing abortions with full legal and ethical knowledge. Also, many of the people working there have never even touched an abortion procedure -- it's hardly the same as an abortion program.

I'm not necessarily pro-abortion, but you're seriously oversimplifying the issue by implying that Planned Parenthood is committing mass murder.

They are not, primarily, an abortion clinic -- they are a medical clinic for women that happens to offer affordable abortions.

The best way to reduce abortions, by the way, is to offer contraceptive care for women and have large welfare programs supporting parents. Sweden has had completely legal abortions for decades now and has way fewer abortions in part because parents know that they can secure a good future for their child -- something which is much harder to do here.

 

[Dpierre]

The actions of Planned Parenthood are completely legal,

Its not the first time in human civilization where murder has been legal. You should do a little history reading. Slavery was legal as well. legality doesn't equal right unless you want to say its fine to keep slaves as long as its legal. Want to go for that one?

and also not the same as murder;

of course. its not like regular murder where you forceable cause a beating heart to stop beating or create brain death....or even dismember human parts.......oh wait.

I'm not necessarily pro-abortion, but you're seriously oversimplifying the issue by implying that Planned Parenthood is committing mass murder.

and you are just seriously becoming aware of what the issue actually is. As for who is oversimplifying - who thinks the whole biological classification of human life goes away just because you use the word "fetus" instead of baby?

 

[Dpierre]

Many cases of abortions are medical abortions, meaning they abort for medical reasons, and those are important to keep safe.

You can create any fantasy world you wish but most abortions (by far) are because of people not being responsible with sex either before, during or after. Claiming otherwise is just living in denial.

 

[Audacious]

You can create any fantasy world you wish but most abortions (by far) are because of people not being responsible with sex either before, during or after. Claiming otherwise is just living in denial.

But there are ways to reduce the number of abortions, while keeping it legal for those who need it medically. Are you pro-contraceptive care? Do you want funding for schools so that inner city schools are as well-funded as middle class ones? Do you want to make sure that children don't go hungry and can be raised in a good environment? Do you want to make sure that women who are parents can go to work and go to school without having major issues by having government-paid-for day care?

These are all things that can, in total, drastically reduce the number of abortions without making it illegal.

Also, I never said that a fetus isn't a person; rather, I said that it's not the same as committing murder because the mentality is totally different from regular murder. Fetuside(?) is different from infanticide, for instance. We at least need a different term.

Edit: my point is that, if having a baby didn't ruin people's lives, we wouldn't have abortions as often.

 

[Dpierre]

But there are ways to reduce the number of abortions, while keeping it legal for those who need it medically

So what? Is PP claiming it should only be available for those in medical danger? Nope. So your point isn't even relevant to PP

Do you want to make sure that children don't go hungry and can be raised in a good environment?

Sure. I just don't think (as no sane compassionate person would under other circumstances besides abortion) a viable solution is to kill the children who are hungry. Do you? So umm whenever we find Children hungry in schools or in danger of being hungry in the future the solution is to kill them right?

Also, I never said that a fetus isn't a person; rather, I said that it's not the same as committing murder because the mentality is totally different from regular murder. Fetuside(?) is different from infanticide, for instance. We at least need a different term.

complete double talk. If a fetus is a person then why isn't it murder. So you are saying you can kill a person to suit your lifestyle (as most abortions are done for) without it being murder? We don't need another term. You need another term to skirt away from the fact that a baby is a human being. Anyway It seems you haven't really heard the reason s why people oppose PP before.

P.S. the only mentality that changes the status of murder is being insane doing something accidentally or in self defense (very few abortions are for protecting the life of the mother).

 

[PapaZoom]

I don't understand how anyone can oppose Planned Parenthood, because most of what they provide are relatively cheap and necessary medical services to women. I want that care to be accessible to my mother and my sister, and therefore I support them as an organization. They'll also serve men in one small but significant fashion: they offer $20 for STD testing (a hospital will charge you $180).

Yes, they do abortions, but abortions are 7% of the services they provide.

It's precisely because they preform abortions that they should be opposed.

There isn't one service that PP makes available that other organizations don't also offer and those organizations are not in the business of killing the unborn.

Free clinics do STD testing as well. Free. If PP disappeared tomorrow, reproductive health care would be just fine. Your mother and your sister have many choices. PP needn't be one of them.

If a nurse worked very hard to help her patients and even went beyond her regular duties to ensure the best of care, we'd rightly praise her. But if that same nurse also killed 7% of her patients, would we simply argue that she does 93% good so therefore the good outweighs the bad? I mean so what the nurse kills 7% of her patients but just think of all the "necessary medical services to women" she provides! You want your mom or sister to be at this hospital knowing this nurse works there?

 

[PapaZoom]

Many cases of abortions are medical abortions, meaning they abort for medical reasons, and those are important to keep safe.

The actions of Planned Parenthood are completely legal, and also not the same as murder; they aren't going around rampantly murdering random children, they are committing abortions with full legal and ethical knowledge. Also, many of the people working there have never even touched an abortion procedure -- it's hardly the same as an abortion program.

I'm not necessarily pro-abortion, but you're seriously oversimplifying the issue by implying that Planned Parenthood is committing mass murder.

PP preforms about 887 abortions a day. That's one about every 97 seconds. So a single organization kills nearly a thousand unborn humans every day and that's not mass killings? (for some mass murder - don't quibble - the killing is massive on any scale)

They are not, primarily, an abortion clinic -- they are a medical clinic for women that happens to offer affordable abortions.

The best way to reduce abortions, by the way, is to offer contraceptive care for women and have large welfare programs supporting parents. Sweden has had completely legal abortions for decades now and has way fewer abortions in part because parents know that they can secure a good future for their child -- something which is much harder to do here.

 

[Rationalt]

Planned parenthood is looking like facility for unplanned abortions.

 

[brewmama]

Many cases of abortions are medical abortions, meaning they abort for medical reasons, and those are important to keep safe.

Really? How many? What are actual "medical reasons"?

They are not, primarily, an abortion clinic -- they are a medical clinic for women that happens to offer affordable abortions.

Wrong. You obviously ignore all the people coming forward, such as Abby Johnson, who show how PP wants more and more abortions, how it is a mainstay for them financially, and how they pressure clinics to increase the number. And they aren't very helpful to pregnant women who don't want an abortion...

"The same day I called them and told them that I had a blood test and it confirmed pregnancy, and I needed to see if I could see a doctor about prenatal care, and what I could and couldn’t do [to] keep the baby healthy.

They then told me that unless I had a sexually transmitted disease or wanted an abortion that they could no longer help me. I said “So y’all do not help pregnant women?” They told me no, that they didn’t have doctors for pregnant women."

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinio...ood-visit-they-told-me-they-dont-have-doctors

 

[brewmama]

Edit: my point is that, if having a baby didn't ruin people's lives, we wouldn't have abortions as often.

Wow. How telling. The first time in the history of mankind where having babies is thought to ruin lives.