[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Dead children go straight to heaven

[Davian]

Not really. To be a reasonable and logical person one must be able to articulate their own positions and why they hold them.

 

[bhsmte]

I got a kick out of that one too.

 

[SteveB28]

By God, I mean infinite timeless existence in which your finite existence in this world depends upon. Yes, this would mean non-existence is impossible. If you exist, you will exist forever, in some form unknown to you now.

Main stream science is describing the universe as being infinite, meaning they think it is eternal and somehow out of that eternity humans popped into existence and will pop back out of existence magically. Hmm seems far fetched don't you think? I guess you do have to believe in magic to be an atheist.

You need to seriously define your terms, because your current approach of just throwing words at an argument is less than effective.

What do you mean by "timeless" or "outside of time"? These mean nothing as they stand. Time is simply the metric by which we arrange the procession or duration of events. Without time, an event simply cannot exist. Consider our 3 dimensional world being absent the dimension of 'height'. We would experience a 2 dimensional world, in which the terms 'up' and 'down' would be totally meaningless.

So it is with your vague claims of 'outside of time'. If we remove the dimension of time, then we also remove the possibility of any sequence of actions - and existence itself is an 'action'! So, as I commented earlier, if you persist in making this "outside of time" descriptor of your god, you are essentially defining him out of existence.

Which is fine with me, by the way!

 

[SteveB28]

What nonsense is this? If what we say is true as we claim, God is not a product of the universe or time but created both.

And his "act" of creation requires time, if it took place in this universe! So, you join our hapless friend in making totally specious claims.

 

[Phenotype]

I've studied a lot of science and physics and have determined that all honest pursuit of science will inevitably lead to the belief in God.

That is called confirmation bias.

You will force whatever you are presented with to verify your presupposition. Your cognition has been programmed to do this by the Christianity meme and the creationist literature you read. Creationism is driven by the agenda, again, to verify Genesis. Try applying falsifiability and empiricism. Everything has a naturalistic explanation. The material is all there is. When you're dead you're dead.

The meaning of life? We make our own meaning. The purpose of existence? Life is fecund. On that point, I strongly suggest you read Richard Dawkins's first and seminal book of 1975, The Selfish Gene, still selling heaps. Brilliant. Order and pay for it online, Amazon or The Book Depository (free postage), eagerly await it in the mail in a few days time, and read it closely. You will have to adopt a receptive attitude, otherwise you will not be able to keep up with it. You will confound it. It is not a novel like Catch 22. It is popular science, though Dawkins has won literary awards for his writing ability.

Creationism is bent on self verification, confirmation bias, because the whole sin and salvation theology vitally depends upon it to stand up. Without creation and the Fall, the whole tottering gospel edifice collapses like a house of cards, like a demolition job.

Yes you are programmed to verify the creationist presupposition, but you are complicit in this. You can always revoke it, before dementia gets you with old age, though I personally know what dispensing with faith implies when so many years of your intellectual and social life have been invested in the puerile and delusional Jesus cult.

 

[Phenotype]

By God, I mean infinite timeless existence in which your finite existence in this world depends upon. Yes, this would mean non-existence is impossible. If you exist, you will exist forever, in some form unknown to you now.

Main stream science is describing the universe as being infinite, meaning they think it is eternal and somehow out of that eternity humans popped into existence and will pop back out of existence magically. Hmm seems far fetched don't you think? I guess you do have to believe in magic to be an atheist.

Goodness, talk about muddled thinking!

"If you exist you will exist forever in some form unknown to you." Huh?? Nhuh...

So you think you can cognitively make sense of this notion. Then you should be able to explain it to me, in words so that it makes perfect sense to me also. I am talking about common sense. This I assume obtains in the public when I drive my car. Other drivers will stay on the correct side of the road. We have evolved with the ability to navigate and negotiate our way around obstacles. One needs evidence and sound reason to accept something as existing or as knowledge and understanding. It is not esoteric. Homer Simpson needs to be able to understand it.

When you describe science as mainstream, you are trivializing science in a relativistic picture in your head and so its description of reality so far, goes right over your head, like a jumbo jet going somewhere.

Science works.

 

[Phenotype]

The only legitimate reason I've come across is that you lack personal evidence and this is preventing you from believing.

That is a legitimate reason, but just because you lack personal evidence does not mean I should stop believing. I do have personal evidence that proves to me that God exists, therefore, I will never stop believing because after I've started believing God has revealed truths that would otherwise not make sense if I didn't believe in Him. Which is exactly why the things I say do not make sense to you, or at least you refuse to admit that what I say does actually make sense.

So you believe that you believe because you believe. Mkay. And hence you believe you get a witness. Smells like confirmation bias.

Not this little black duck.

 

[Strathos]

I see you are pointing to special relativity. And your argument is replete with errors and irrelevancies.

The theory explains the relative passage of time between a moving object and an observer, however, it does not postulate that time ceases to exist, as my former correspondent seems to claim in the case of his god's existence. Further, your claim that "no time passes" as light moves is patently ridiculous. Can I remind you that one of the units of cosmic measurement (the light year) is based upon the knowledge of the period of time that passes when light travels a certain distance! That we are currently viewing the behaviour of stars from millions of years ago does not mean that time has 'stood still', or some other such nonsense - it reflects instead the TIME that it has taken for that light to reach us!

But this is all designed to draw attention away from my correspondent's silly claims, isn't it? He claims that, in the case of his god, that time is non-existent - a claim which is rubbished by his own holy book! One need look no further than Genesis to see that we are to believe that god created the various aspects of the universe over the course of several days - the book goes to specific pains to cement the message that TIME was an integral element in this supposed creation process.

Again, if my correspondent insists that his god is 'outside of time', then his ability to do anything, including exist, is impossible in this universe.

No time passes from the perspective of the photon. That's the whole point of relativity - time is relative. It depends on your reference frame. Could not God exist in a reference frame wherein all time that we experience is simultaneous?

 

[Phenotype]

The only thing all athiests have in common is a lack of personal evidence of God. There's no other good reason to lack belief in God.

Indeed there are. Atheists have more fun. They can laugh at whatever is funny. They don't have imperatives hanging over their heads, like having to believe in a cosmic concept like sin. They can laugh about sex. They can freely admit it about the erotic being erotic.

Atheists such as would engage here, I will assert, will endorse and even champion universal human rights and every person's right to express their sexual orientation. I don't think it is up to the others to confer marriage rights on gay people. No, those who represent the status quo stand aside while LGBTQIA people step in and claim the equality they have been denied, discriminated against because of religious taboos on sex and religious conformism having historically prevailed. We don't have to affirm that homosexuality is a sin and a disease, caused by original sin. It is not abnormal in mammals, it is normal.

Any neutral observer scrutinizing these threads, these disputes would readily judge that the non theists can express themselves more capably, that they make much more sense, far more, and their arguments and questions to theists are potent and penetrating. And that they never get addressed or answered. This is due to the fact that the self declared atheist is practised in critical thinking, lifelong learning and free inquiry. That's because they spurn being warned off from exercising independent thinking, especially as regards the God concept, Creationism stupidity and religion in general, which is to commit the Unpardonable Sin, pursuing intellectual and moral autonomy.

The atheists' questions such as 'where is your evidence' never get answered because the Christian never confronts this. They dare not. They lack intellectual and moral courage and integrity. They are avoidant, escapist. That is uptight. Atheists don't have to live with all that contradiction and inner conflict. As though life doesn't have its existential responsibilities that one has to face anyway, daily. One has to face the human condition and no that's not due to original sin.

Christianity parades itself as perfect peace and boundless freedom in Christ. Not so. It induces inescapable cognitive dissonance, existential inauthenticity and angst as it is all about obedience and endorsement of formulaic teachings, odious death to self nonsense.

It is really about what is forbidden, not what is permitted. Especially about the big one, sex and masturbation etc. It is obsessed with the afterlife ridiculousness. Christians are totally superstitious. Atheists find all of that endlessly funny, as adults should.

 

[Phenotype]

I've always been interested in science and physics which for the longest time kept me from really believing in God, but then I decided to really honestly study Christian theology and bible prophesy and compare to study of quantumn physics and the origins of the universe and determined the only way to reasonably make sense of it all was that an infinite timeless God created the universe, which lines up with what the Holy Bible says.

Everyone comes to the realization of God in different ways. By no means is it necessary to study science in order to believe in God.

Lol, this thread is so off topic, but that's why I enjoy these conversations, because you never know where they will lead.

You left out the bit about you being evangelized, proselytized, didn't you.

I notice you didn't study Social Sciences, anthropology, philosophy, psychology, economic, social and political history. Therein, if one wants to pass, let alone achieve high distinctions, one faces the daunting obligation to read widely within academic polemics on the subject in question and synthesize your essay with arguments demonstrating critical thinking.

Then you would have been equipped to resist their project to get you converted to their scene, which makes them significant and affirms them before the others and their sky god.

Threads like this will always come back to epistemology and ontology. These are terms you have to learn to cope with in Social Sciences.

 

[Phenotype]

Thank you for your response but it's still vague to me. It seems to be mainly about wishing to fuse a connection between your personal, selective studies of science and your interpretation of scriptures rather than there irrefutably being one.
Most professional Quantum Physicists do not believe in God. Stephen Hawkings' has actually detailed his reasons for the assertion that there is no God, based on the depth of his studies.





I feel this is a tad bit demeaning to those who actually have thoughtful and meaningful reasons to lack belief in God. Have you ever studied philosophy? The majority of living philosophers are atheist, and most have deeply contemplated and reasoned the belief in a deity. There's an abundance of sound ethical, philosophical, and scientific reasons to not believe in God. If you're interested Julian Baggini has a very simple, straightforward book titled Atheism: A Very Short Introduction that touches upon some of the reasoning for not believing in God. It's in modern day vernacular and is an easy read.

The

Thank you for your response but it's still vague to me. It seems to be mainly about wishing to fuse a connection between your personal, selective studies of science and your interpretation of scriptures rather than there irrefutably being one.
Most professional Quantum Physicists do not believe in God. Stephen Hawkings' has actually detailed his reasons for the assertion that there is no God, based on the depth of his studies.





I feel this is a tad bit demeaning to those who actually have thoughtful and meaningful reasons to lack belief in God. Have you ever studied philosophy? The majority of living philosophers are atheist, and most have deeply contemplated and reasoned the belief in a deity. There's an abundance of sound ethical, philosophical, and scientific reasons to not believe in God. If you're interested Julian Baggini has a very simple, straightforward book titled Atheism: A Very Short Introduction that touches upon some of the reasoning for not believing in God. It's in modern day vernacular and is an easy read.

The anthropology of religion also demonstrates how profoundly one's culture shapes religious traditions and spiritual ideas, and how that influences belief or lack thereof in a deity. People tend to believe what their families and those around them commonly believe, which is why there are profound differences in belief around the world and throughout the ages. That makes me feel like belief is shaped more by humans than by God.

On a side note, I'm actually taking a course in the winter quarter titled Belief. It should be interesting.

 

[Phenotype]

Thank you for your response but it's still vague to me. It seems to be mainly about wishing to fuse a connection between your personal, selective studies of science and your interpretation of scriptures rather than there irrefutably being one.
Most professional Quantum Physicists do not believe in God. Stephen Hawkings' has actually detailed his reasons for the assertion that there is no God, based on the depth of his studies.





I feel this is a tad bit demeaning to those who actually have thoughtful and meaningful reasons to lack belief in God. Have you ever studied philosophy? The majority of living philosophers are atheist, and most have deeply contemplated and reasoned the belief in a deity. There's an abundance of sound ethical, philosophical, and scientific reasons to not believe in God. If you're interested Julian Baggini has a very simple, straightforward book titled Atheism: A Very Short Introduction that touches upon some of the reasoning for not believing in God. It's in modern day vernacular and is an easy read.

The anthropology of religion also demonstrates how profoundly one's culture shapes religious traditions and spiritual ideas, and how that influences belief or lack thereof in a deity. People tend to believe what their families and those around them commonly believe, which is why there are profound differences in belief around the world and throughout the ages. That makes me feel like belief is shaped more by humans than by God.

On a side note, I'm actually taking a course in the winter quarter titled Belief. It should be interesting.

I think you will do well in the course. You are a goer.

The Think 44: Belief course outline says the reasons people get into religion are unanswerable.

Our evolution from our arcane Homo sapiens ancestors and the Social Sciences are where you will find your answers.

Cheers.

 

[Phenotype]

Thanks, I'm well aware of what Stephen Hawking thinks is true. I've read the grand design book twice in order to fully understand human knowledge of the universe thus far. Human knowledge can't explain everything, only knowledge of the divine given through the belief in Jesus Christ can explain everything in life and beyond. This is the truth I have access to through Jesus Christ which surpasses all human knowledge. If you are a true Christian, you should already know this.

I'd love to talk to an atheist who actually has a good reason to not believe in God. It's just really difficult to find one who does have a good reason.

For all we know, space/time could be an illusion that our finite physical brains allow us to experience. God is not of the physical, so he may have created time and space for only one purpose and that would be to destroy evil and protect us from it and actually give us a chance to believe he's real. Ones we believe and then die, we then realize eternity, which would actually be real existence not this imaginary existence that's restricted to finite space/time. Anything finite must come to an end, leaving forever to commence.

Just some thoughts.

'There is no nice way to tell someone they have devoted their whole life to a delusion.' Daniel C. Dennett.

You are capable of better than this. I suggest you enroll in off campus further education at a good secular university. Do philosophy and Social Sciences subjects where you get really stretched intellectually. I'm talking about formal education.

Otherwise independently study the very popular science and scholarship you are warned against in the Christian scene. I mean, go in total revolt. You'll be so glad you did.

 

[Chriliman]

'There is no nice way to tell someone they have devoted their whole life to a delusion.' Daniel C. Dennett.

This is ironic, because if God does not exist then it really doesn't matter if I'm delusional. If God does exist then it should really matter to you if you're the delusional one here.

You are capable of better than this. I suggest you enroll in off campus further education at a good secular university. Do philosophy and Social Sciences subjects where you get really stretched intellectually. I'm talking about formal education.

Otherwise independently study the very popular science and scholarship you are warned against in the Christian scene. I mean, go in total revolt. You'll be so glad you did.

Why do you assume I havn't already done all that? In fact I have and I've determined what the truth is. Please stop being so condescending. You make it difficult to respect what you say when you have a condescending tone.

 

[asherahSamaria]

This is ironic, because if God does not exist then it really doesn't matter if I'm delusional. If God does exist then it should really matter to you if you're the delusional one here.



Why do you assume I havn't already done all that? In fact I have and I've determined what the truth is. Please stop being so condescending. You make it difficult to respect what you say when you have a condescending tone.

This is ironic, because if God does not exist then it really doesn't matter if I'm delusional. If God does exist then it should really matter to you if you're the delusional one here. - Isn't that just Pascal's wager?

 

[Chriliman]

This is ironic, because if God does not exist then it really doesn't matter if I'm delusional. If God does exist then it should really matter to you if you're the delusional one here. - Isn't that just Pascal's wager?

Why would my delusion matter to you, if the only reason you consider me delusional is because I believe in God? By not believing in God you're taking away the only meaning behind my delusion, therefore, it would be impossible for my delusion to actually matter to you because you don't believe in the very reason for my delusion.

Therefore, according to your non-belief in God, you also have non-belief in my delusion, rendering me not delusional, according to you.

In other words, according to your non-belief in God, God must not be real, therefore my delusion must not be real. Do you understand?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I never made the claim that they were accurate. Are you unable to articulate your own theological position?

If you do not believe in a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing, what do you believe in?

Let's take this one by one then. Do I believe in the Christian God who walked and talked in the garden...yes. Does He have evidence to support His existence...yes. Did He poof people and animals into existence...yes. Did animals just poof into existence...I don't believe that is how He created them. There is evidence that at one time 95 percent of all living things died. There are differing explanation but no direct evidence of how. Did people just poof into existence...I don't believe that is how He created them. Genetics shows that actually all women alive today can trace their DNA back to a women living in the area of what is thought to have been where Eden was suppose to be and all men living today can trace their DNA to a man living in the area thought to have been where Eden was suppose to be. I don't have any belief about the flood killing dino's and I am not a YEC. Perhaps that makes it a little clearer, as to my position.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you think Christianity was the first religion 'on the scene'?

No.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I have shown support for my positions. I don't believe I can remember when you ever have.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I got a kick out of that one too.

Of course you did. You don't provide any meaningful dialog but sit in the sidelines and pretend you "understand" where theists are coming from all the while not having a clue.